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  1. #21
    Civic_critic2 Civic_critic2 is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by NMunsterman View Post
    Goes on all time - everywhere - but we just don't know the half or quarter of it - which is why it's kept secret.
    Non-aligned Sweden carried out reconnaissance flights over Soviet airspace during the Cold War as part of a secret deal with NATO.
    Indeed but that is not government by the people for the people. One of the first things the soviets did was reveal the secret diplomatic agreements between the tsarist government and other governments, they did this on the basis that secret diplomatic agreements were incompatible with democracy. I believe that one of the first agreements they revealed was the Balfour Declaration, which is open news to us but was revealed to the world by them as a secret agreement.

    That it is considered 'normal business' in the supposedly democratic western world to engage in secret diplomatic agreements shows just how degenerate and depowered the people's understanding of democracy has become.
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  2. #22
    farnaby farnaby is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toland View Post
    To be honest, I think the policy of promoting a customs border on the Irish Sea is a pretty good one. It makes the point far more clearly than a more strident pro-unification stance, because it can't be dismissed easily as just more or the same old nationalist tripe.

    It is also seen as an aggressive position -- and appropriately so -- by our European partners, underlining the sheer irresponsibility of the British position.
    One imaginative scenario could be that NI attains the status of free trade zone/special economic region in relation to European trade with the UK - it stays within the customs union and products/services manufactured there would have to conform to EU standards and legal frameworks - representing an opportunity for UK firms to channel their exports through NI for onward trade with the EU versus tariffs/restrictions etc. that will apply to direct GB-EU trade.

    Nationalist Ireland gets a more cohesive all-Ireland economy and no border controls
    DUP gets cold hard cash flowing into NI
    EU gets its way on the Irish border while enabling mutually beneficial trade arrangements between UK and EU (which it ultimately wants, it just wants to ensure there is a price for leaving that exceeds the price for staying)
    UK govt gets to move forward on trade
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  3. #23
    silverharp silverharp is online now
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toland View Post
    Thankfully, demographics are not the only factor. Personally, I think that if Brexit ends up being the disaster for Britain I suspect it very well might (where on earth is there an up-side?), then there may be some changes of mind on a substantial scale in the centre between unionism and nationalism about how best to ensure the welfare of the people of Northern Ireland.
    the EU is more unstable than the UK is. Britain may or not underperform in the medium term, but in 20 or 30 years time they will be thanking themselves, the EU will be spinning out of control at that stage
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  4. #24
    ruserious ruserious is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by farnaby View Post
    One imaginative scenario could be that NI attains the status of free trade zone/special economic region in relation to European trade with the UK - it stays within the customs union and products/services manufactured there would have to conform to EU standards and legal frameworks - representing an opportunity for UK firms to channel their exports through NI for onward trade with the EU versus tariffs/restrictions etc. that will apply to direct GB-EU trade.

    Nationalist Ireland gets a more cohesive all-Ireland economy and no border controls
    DUP gets cold hard cash flowing into NI
    EU gets its way on the Irish border while enabling mutually beneficial trade arrangements between UK and EU (which it ultimately wants, it just wants to ensure there is a price for leaving that exceeds the price for staying)
    UK govt gets to move forward on trade
    What about stuff like cross border medical care under the GFA. The North would have to maintain EU regulations on medicines etc. It's not just a customs issue. It's a proposal to divide an all-island economy. It won't work. It's doomed to fail. Unless the border goes in the sea. And that will collapse the British government.
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  5. #25
    Se0samh Se0samh is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordie Northsider View Post
    The demographic changes are real but they will take a decade at least to play out. Brexit is more urgent than that. It's true that people will be incensed by the re-appearance of customs posts and security checks along the border. My hope is that the anger is channelled into positive civil disobedience and that the dissident groups don't use the public's anger to carry out a campaign of bombing and shooting.



    https://endgameinulster.blogspot.co.uk/
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  6. #26
    johnnypockets johnnypockets is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Congalltee View Post
    Will the politicians who cause a hard border, attend the funeral of the first border guard who is murdered?
    Will there be votes in it?
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  7. #27
    Toland Toland is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by farnaby View Post
    One imaginative scenario could be that NI attains the status of free trade zone/special economic region in relation to European trade with the UK - it stays within the customs union and products/services manufactured there would have to conform to EU standards and legal frameworks - representing an opportunity for UK firms to channel their exports through NI for onward trade with the EU versus tariffs/restrictions etc. that will apply to direct GB-EU trade.

    Nationalist Ireland gets a more cohesive all-Ireland economy and no border controls
    DUP gets cold hard cash flowing into NI
    EU gets its way on the Irish border while enabling mutually beneficial trade arrangements between UK and EU (which it ultimately wants, it just wants to ensure there is a price for leaving that exceeds the price for staying)
    UK govt gets to move forward on trade
    Sounds like a free pass. But Europe and Britain, and the very suspicious and apparently more than a little spiteful DUP could allow it to happen, then great!

    It would still require a customs border on the Irish Sea, though.
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  8. #28
    Toland Toland is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverharp View Post
    the EU is more unstable than the UK is. ...
    *Splutter*
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  9. #29
    NMunsterman NMunsterman is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Civic_critic2 View Post
    Indeed but that is not government by the people for the people. One of the first things the soviets did was reveal the secret diplomatic agreements between the tsarist government and other governments, they did this on the basis that secret diplomatic agreements were incompatible with democracy. I believe that one of the first agreements they revealed was the Balfour Declaration, which is open news to us but was revealed to the world by them as a secret agreement.

    That it is considered 'normal business' in the supposedly democratic western world to engage in secret diplomatic agreements shows just how degenerate and depowered the people's understanding of democracy has become.
    Katyn Wood.
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  10. #30
    NMunsterman NMunsterman is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by ruserious View Post
    What about stuff like cross border medical care under the GFA. The North would have to maintain EU regulations on medicines etc. It's not just a customs issue. It's a proposal to divide an all-island economy. It won't work. It's doomed to fail. Unless the border goes in the sea. And that will collapse the British government.

    If this is the result of Britain's own internal dynamic, then so be it.
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