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  1. #11
    Ratio Et Fides Ratio Et Fides is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Telstar 62 View Post
    Trust you to laud an anti Semite.

    At least you're consistent - but not in a good way.
    Unlike you have read the broadcasts he made from Germany during WWII when he was working as a teacher there and I found nothing that in the least actually anti-Semitic in them. While the depth of his love for Ireland shines through in them, beautifully so, they are basically made up of bog standard for the time Irish Republicanism. Have you read any of his novels? Black List Section H is one of the most powerful books ever written.
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  2. #12
    gatsbygirl20 gatsbygirl20 is offline

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    I had expected a very prominent thread on this programme. Goes to show I suppose how Hume, once such a political colossus, is forgotten by younger generations

    The programme showed the slow, patient cultivating of influential American politicians in Washington and the risks they were eventually persuaded to take and the pressure applied on the UK and others

    It was an amazing, strategic use of soft power, whether one agreed with the outcome or not. It could have implications for exerting political influence in other contexts--perhaps lessons were indeed learned from it in the exercise of soft diplomacy, the importance of visibility and engagement in the corridors of power--the EU for example

    Hume's vision originally seemed somewhat naive, but it eventually came to pass in some form.

    Like an IT expert building a robot, Hume must have known that if his vision came to pass it would render him and the SDLP redundant, as he would be a mere facilitator, as the more extreme margins on both sides would be the players who would make or break any deal

    Bill Clinton expressed this idea very well, but I cannot remember his words... He said Hume was willing to make a personal political sacrifice for a settlement, knowing that a deal and its attendant risks would inevitably see both communities supporting their own strongmen, not the more wishy washy middle ground

    Sťamus Mallon was understandably mightily p1ssed off with Hume's solo runs and lack of team spirit, but Hume was probably, like most visionaries, too much of a maverick to play the team game
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  3. #13
    Hunter-Gatherer Hunter-Gatherer is offline

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    Hume is a political giant. He deserves a statue in all of dublin london and Belfast. Plus his native derry.

    Clinton alluded to career suicide plus the death of humes party....as a consequence of good Friday agreement.
    Last edited by Hunter-Gatherer; 8th August 2018 at 06:30 PM.
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  4. #14
    cricket cricket is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by gatsbygirl20 View Post
    I had expected a very prominent thread on this programme. Goes to show I suppose how Hume, once such a political colossus, is forgotten by younger generations

    The programme showed the slow, patient cultivating of influential American politicians in Washington and the risks they were eventually persuaded to take and the pressure applied on the UK and others

    It was an amazing, strategic use of soft power, whether one agreed with the outcome or not. It could have implications for exerting political influence in other contexts--perhaps lessons were indeed learned from it in the exercise of soft diplomacy, the importance of visibility and engagement in the corridors of power--the EU for example

    Hume's vision originally seemed somewhat naive, but it eventually came to pass in some form.

    Like an IT expert building a robot, Hume must have known that if his vision came to pass it would render him and the SDLP redundant, as he would be a mere facilitator, as the more extreme margins on both sides would be the players who would make or break any deal

    Bill Clinton expressed this idea very well, but I cannot remember his words... He said Hume was willing to make a personal political sacrifice for a settlement, knowing that a deal and its attendant risks would inevitably see both communities supporting their own strongmen, not the more wishy washy middle ground

    Sťamus Mallon was understandably mightily p1ssed off with Hume's solo runs and lack of team spirit, but Hume was probably, like most visionaries, too much of a maverick to play the team game
    Heard a long time ago that , if Hume had shared his every thought and action with his SDLP colleagues, they would have been leaked to the media within minutes.
    The programme itself had a lot of people praising themselves, but much of it was well deserved. Apart from Hume, there were some highly skillful players in the Irish diplomatic service and senior US politicians. The manner in which Reagan was brought on board the Irish side by virtue of the tracing of his ancestry to Ballyporeen was an eye-opener.
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  5. #15
    JimmyFoley JimmyFoley is online now

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    Quote Originally Posted by gatsbygirl20 View Post
    I had expected a very prominent thread on this programme. Goes to show I suppose how Hume, once such a political colossus, is forgotten by younger generations
    I didn't watch the documentary (I couldn't sit through *another* one), but I flicked over at towards the end to hear Eamon McCann's commenting that the tour guides showing visitors around Derry only mention Hume's name in relation to his initiative with Gerry Adams in 1993 or whenever! It's as if he didn't exist before that.
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  6. #16
    Windowshopper Windowshopper is online now
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    It was a good doc, but much like the 1916 doc which Neeson also narrated it was too much aimed for the American audience for my liking. There is a certain style of Trad music and sweeping visualisations of the Irish countryside which is too touristicy for me. But still it was good to have so many big players in the Peace Process give their bit, they are all getting on.
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  7. #17
    Civic_critic2 Civic_critic2 is offline

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    Did they mention that the main reason for the change of approach to the conflict in Ireland came from strategic changes and new priorities stemming from the end of the Cold War? Like the end of the Cold War also changed the approach to south Africa?

    No? Just the 'heroic man', 'reason prevailed', 'brave risks by skilful diplomats' etc etc story?

    What power do you think John Hume had compared to NATO?

    The soft human-interest narrative is very good for public consumption, it has the advantage of keeping the same people in the dark as a new chapter opens - Brexit - that may titlt their priorities again another way and the people can be led by whatever narrative is required, clueless of what happened then and what's happening now.
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  8. #18
    gatsbygirl20 gatsbygirl20 is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Windowshopper View Post
    It was a good doc, but much like the 1916 doc which Neeson also narrated it was too much aimed for the American audience for my liking. There is a certain style of Trad music and sweeping visualisations of the Irish countryside which is too touristicy for me.
    Yeah, Neeson has that low, bardic Celtic thing going on, a voice more suited to the delivery of poetry.. .(*Lightbulb*.. Could Neeson be persuaded to run for the Presidency? )

    But yes, there were a lot of self-satisfied talking heads bent on carving out their place in history as the architects of the peace

    But it occurred to me as I was watching it and feeling a tad irritated for the reasons you mention, that there might be young folk who do not know the details of what my generation regard as recent events---and that the revisiting of these events, even in a broadbrush fashion, is worthwhile

    It is no harm for the next generation to see the complex painstaking, slow work by many gifted men and women which went into forging some kind of peaceful accommodation

    How fragile that is. How hard to create. How easily shattered
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  9. #19
    Windowshopper Windowshopper is online now
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    Quote Originally Posted by Civic_critic2 View Post
    Did they mention that the main reason for the change of approach to the conflict in Ireland came from strategic changes and new priorities stemming from the end of the Cold War? Like the end of the Cold War also changed the approach to south Africa?

    No? Just the 'heroic man', 'reason prevailed', 'brave risks by skilful diplomats' etc etc story?

    What power do you think John Hume had compared to NATO?

    The soft human-interest narrative is very good for public consumption, it has the advantage of keeping the same people in the dark as a new chapter opens - Brexit - that may titlt their priorities again another way and the people can be led by whatever narrative is required, clueless of what happened then and what's happening now.
    Funnily enough one of my reservations about the doc wasn't its facts which are largely correct but the thought of ' do Americans really need a documentary about how American foreign policy is a force for good in the world?' It was in Northern Ireland and a lot of places but I think Americans instinctively see themselves as the 'good guys' (indeed one of the talking heads said that the American view of foreign policy as good v bad guys was part of the problem of Irish American interaction with the issue of NI up until Hume's missions to America), which can lead to an uncritical support of American adventurism among the American public. They really don't need that reinforced, the opposite in fact.
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  10. #20
    Civic_critic2 Civic_critic2 is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by gatsbygirl20 View Post
    It is no harm for the next generation to see the complex painstaking, slow work by many gifted men and women which went into forging some kind of peaceful accommodation
    The English have always made the Irish jump through hoops and long drawn out processes for 20, 30, 40 years to absorb their energy before taking an abrupt turn, often to violence and suppression when it no longer worked. This is imperative to remember.
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