Originally Posted by Clanrickard

It is not people looking for work that are villified iot is people on the dole not looking for work that is the problem.

And the media have decided that the majority of the 450,000 who are unemployed are not seeking work.

Originally Posted by Cantona07

Overall based on the 2 figures TV3 left out the family working are actually €4,152 better off, and if you use the figures without rent allowance the working couple are at least €12,732 better off and I say at least because the people without rent allowance will be paying either social housing rent or mortgage interest payments.

This is on a salary of €40,000 though. So basically, given the example, welfare is preferable to a job paying €35,000.

Do you not see the problem?

To create the right incentives, even a job paying minimum wage should leave all welfare recipients substantially better off.

Originally Posted by TommyO'Brien

Don't you know that p.ie is against everything? So it is against SW. It is against RTE. It is against TV3. It wrecks the head when two of its pet 'againsts' come up against each other!!!

This is not quite true; P.ie is definitely for being against stuff.

Originally Posted by Nermal

This is on a salary of €40,000 though. So basically, given the example, welfare is preferable to a job paying €35,000.

Do you not see the problem?

To create the right incentives, even a job paying minimum wage should leave all welfare recipients substantially better off.

Your forgetting FAMILY INCOME SUPPLEMENT!

FIS pays 60% of the difference between your NET wages and the stated figure the government considers what you should be earning. If you earn less than 40,000 your FIS is bumbed up!

One child	€506
Two children	€602
Three children	€703
Four children	€824
Five children	€950
Six children	€1,066
Seven children	€1,202
Eight children	€1,298

Why cant people educate themseves FFS instead of following the heard.


The minimum wage of €8.65 would pay around €328 per week.

The couple in the example would take home with FIS around € 492 per week, €164 per week more than the dole.

Originally Posted by Expose the lot of them
I find it extraordinary that such a statement goes unchallenged while those who are seeking work are constantly vilified.

Originally Posted by Clanrickard

It is not people looking for work that are villified iot is people on the dole not looking for work that is the problem.

Ah, now come on Clanrickard. To be fair, you are usually better than most, but you cannot deny that many posters on here, on any thread involving SW, refer constantly to doleheads, scroungers, parasites or worse. They do not make any distinction between those who are generational, and those who have been screwed by the incompetence of government, the banks, economists etc.

Originally Posted by Cantona07

Just watching the TV programme Midweek on TV3 in regards to the recent ERSI report about people being better of on the dole.

Within the first 5 minutes I am sickened by the damn lies and false information they are giving out in regards to people on the said
dole.

It is so bad I have just emailed them in complaint and informed them that unless they correct their imformation I will report them to the TV complaints authority.

To give you an example.

They said;

2 Adults, 2 Children living in County Cork

€16,265 Jobseekers
€ 3,099 Childrens Qualified allowance
€ 3,360 Child Benefit
€ 820 Back to School allowance and fuel allowance
€ 8,580 Rent Allowance

€ 32,124 per year - Total.

My first issue is that not everyone is in receipt of rent allowance, before this section they had an employer claiming that people wont work because being on the dole gets them a interest only payment scheme, then seconds later TV3 add in Rent allowance to total up the overall figure. As I have already stated not everyone rents.

Those in a mortgage will be paying something, and those who rent off social housing will be paying something and both sets of people will not be in receipt of €8,580 in rent allowance.

TV3 then used the same example of this couple and showed us what would happen if they worked.

€40,000 Income
€ 4,640 Tax
€ 3,454 USC/PRSI

€31,876 NET

TV3 then compared this total with the social welfare total and came to the conclusion that welfare pays slightly more. Then they said that they have lost all benefits and will now have to pay for child care etc.

BUT WAIT!!!!!!!

TV3 Have lied!

Out of the employment figure they have forgot to include

Child Benefit of €3,360.00
Family Income Supplement payments of € 20.00 per week
And of course we have only 1 parent going out to work so no child care payments are needed
Not everyone on the dole is in receipt of rent allowance so the example is not reflective of everyone on the dole!

Overall based on the 2 figures TV3 left out the family working are actually €4,152 better off, and if you use the figures without rent allowance the working couple are at least €12,732 better off and I say at least because the people without rent allowance will be paying either social housing rent or mortgage interest payments.

TV3 are a disgrace.

Looking at your figures and it seems that you and TV have also forgot the minimum payment for those on rent allowance,
It was announced in Budget 2012 that the minimum contribution towards rent would increase. From 1 January 2012 the minimum contribution by single tenants is €30 (an increase of €6 per week). Couples pay a minimum of €35 per week.

Rent Supplement » Supplementary Welfare Allowance » Schemes and Services » Department of Social Protection

Thats an additional €35 per week those with rent payments have to pay, this totals upto €8,528. so out of their weekly dole payments couples renting must pay €35 per week which means the figure of €8,528has also been exluded from the calculations TV3 have made.

Originally Posted by Loaisman

Ah, now come on Clanrickard. To be fair, you are usually better than most, but you cannot deny that many posters on here, on any thread involving SW, refer constantly to doleheads, scroungers, parasites or worse. They do not make any distinction between those who are generational, and those who have been screwed by the incompetence of government, the banks, economists etc.

I'd make a small bet that at least 30% of P.ie posters who use that kind of terminology are themselves unemployed.

Originally Posted by Neutron

Your forgetting FAMILY INCOME SUPPLEMENT!

Well I'm not familiar with every nook and cranny of our byzantine welfare system, sue me. Still doesn't look good to me, maybe you can tell me where I'm going wrong:

2 Adults, 2 Children living in County Cork

€16,265 Jobseekers
€ 3,099 Childrens Qualified allowance
€ 3,360 Child Benefit
€ 820 Back to School allowance and fuel allowance
€ 8,580 Rent Allowance

€32,124 per year - Total.


Same couple, one earner on minimum wage

€17,414 Net income
€ 3,360 Child Benefit
€ 820 Back to School allowance and fuel allowance (assuming you can still get this but not sure)
€ 8,330 FIS

€29,924 per year - Total

By the way, another point: we shouldn't HAVE to make these type of calculations. If the system is so complex that we have to, it's a failure. It should be obvious that work pays. I just had a look at trying to find out whether the second couple were eligible for a medical card, I dozed off almost immediately. The waste of administration, means-testing, eligibility checking in the welfare system is unbelievable.

Originally Posted by Nermal

Well I'm not familiar with every nook and cranny of our byzantine welfare system, sue me. Still doesn't look good to me, maybe you can tell me where I'm going wrong:

2 Adults, 2 Children living in County Cork

€16,265 Jobseekers
€ 3,099 Childrens Qualified allowance
€ 3,360 Child Benefit
€ 820 Back to School allowance and fuel allowance
€ 8,580 Rent Allowance

€32,124 per year - Total.


Same couple, one earner on minimum wage

€17,414 Net income
€ 3,360 Child Benefit
€ 820 Back to School allowance and fuel allowance (assuming you can still get this but not sure)
€ 8,330 FIS

€29,924 per year - Total

AGAIN YOUR NOT EDUCATING YOURSELF!!!

Not everyone on the dole is in receipt of RENT SUPPLEMENT. I think the figure for those on it is around between 10-15% according to TV3 last night. Those who are on it have to find € 8,528 from their dole payments to make the minimum contribution.

Thus it would be fair to exclude €8,528 from the figures for the unemployed couple,


2 Adults, 2 Children living in County Cork

€16,265 Jobseekers
€ 3,099 Childrens Qualified allowance
€ 3,360 Child Benefit
€ 820 Back to School allowance and fuel allowance
€ 8,580 Rent Allowance
€8,528 minimum contribution for RENT that must be paid.

€23,596 per year - Total.




Same couple, one earner on minimum wage

€17,414 Net income
€ 3,360 Child Benefit
€ 820 Back to School allowance and fuel allowance (assuming you can still get this but not sure)
€ 8,330 FIS

€29,924 per year - Total

Originally Posted by Neutron

Thus it would be fair to exclude €8,528 from the figures for the unemployed couple

No it wouldn't. You're moving the goalposts now. Your example is valid for someone who owns a house mortgage-free, fair enough.

But as I said: work should pay in EVERY situation, and it's inarguable that it doesn't under our current system.