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  1. #81
    Lonewolfe Lonewolfe is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by obeyImust View Post
    What happened in Yugoslavia is what could have happened in Northern Ireland - both sides had genocidal dreams - the loyalists/unionists want a Protestant Ulster and many republicans still dream of all Irish Republic that is Catholic and entirely Gaelic.
    Well, not quite. There were militias all over the Blakans who did awful things; it has that much in common with the North.

    However, the Balkans had the Serbs (the most well armed) and to a lesser extent the Croats who carried out State led atrocities against civilians.
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  2. #82
    IvoShandor IvoShandor is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interista View Post
    So because the Serbs committed atrocities in Bosnia, it was therefore OK to bomb Serbia several years later, and to do so in support of an acknowledged terrorist group, themselves known for having committed numerous atrocities?
    Of course there would have been no group, whether labelled "terrorist" or "freedom fighter" had it not been for the years of ferocious repression visited upon the population of Kosovo. Moderation had gained them precisely nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Interista View Post
    And it's well known that the most serious incidences of ethnic cleansing in Kosovo occurred after the NATO bombing, not before.

    I also think it's naive to suppose NATO bombed Serbia for humanitarian reasons. NATO never bombs for humanitarian reasons, even if such a concept were possible.
    The Serbian attempt to drive the entire population of Kosovo out was a pretty serious example of ethnic cleansing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Astral Peaks View Post
    Exactly. Kosovar Serbs were largely peaceful people in the period 92 to 95.
    And then they listened the ranting of a nationalistic rabble-rouser....and sealed their own fate.
    Last edited by IvoShandor; 11th August 2013 at 06:16 PM.
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  3. #83
    Lonewolfe Lonewolfe is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interista View Post
    Certainly. But only in the overall context where all sides acknowledge such crimes, and crimes committed against Serbs are taken as seriously as crimes committed by Serbs. However, such a state of affairs is unlikely to happen when the Serbs are deeply resentful of having 15% of their national territory lopped off to form an American military base, and streets in Croatia are named after the convicted war criminal responsible for the biggest act of ethnic cleansing in the Balkan wars.
    The scale and the State led nature of the aggression (barbarity really) marks out Serbia and Croatia to a lesser extent.
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  4. #84
    Interista Interista is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by IvoShandor View Post
    QUOTE=Interista;5235216]So because the Serbs committed atrocities in Bosnia, it was therefore OK to bomb Serbia several years later, and to do so in support of an acknowledged terrorist group, themselves known for having committed numerous atrocities? And it's well known that the most serious incidences of ethnic cleansing in Kosovo occurred after the NATO bombing, not before.

    I also think it's naive to suppose NATO bombed Serbia for humanitarian reasons. NATO never bombs for humanitarian reasons, even if such a concept were possible.
    The Serbian attempt to drive the entire population of Kosovo out was a pretty serious example of ethnic cleansing.[/QUOTE]

    It would have been, had it taken place. But it didn't.
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  5. #85
    Interista Interista is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonewolfe View Post
    The scale and the State led nature of the aggression (barbarity really) marks out Serbia and Croatia to a lesser extent.
    Yeah, but you won't see the likes of Vulliamy penning editorials denouncing the Croats for failing to come to terms with their past.
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  6. #86
    Lonewolfe Lonewolfe is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interista View Post
    Yeah, but you won't see the likes of Vulliamy penning editorials denouncing the Croats for failing to come to terms with their past.


    Probably not, although he witnessed the Serbian atrocities and they're burnt into his memory - I wouldn't really blame him for not being their no 1 fan. That said, he did speak highly of many Serbs who opposed the wars.

    Jebus, it is shocking though to think what went on there. So recent, so near.

    It's something that I think has been swept under the rug by the Western media - it's perhaps too shocking to speak of.
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  7. #87
    Interista Interista is offline
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    [QUOTE=Lonewolfe;5236011]
    Probably not, although he witnessed the Serbian atrocities and they're burnt into his memory - I wouldn't really blame him for not being their no 1 fan. That said, he did speak highly of many Serbs who opposed the wars.
    But surely if he was in the thick of things - and he was - he must have witnessed atrocities committed by Croats and/or Bosnians too?

    Jebus, it is shocking though to think what went on there. So recent, so near.

    It's something that I think has been swept under the rug by the Western media - it's perhaps too shocking to speak of.
    I don't think it has been swept under the carpet. There have been numerous books and films about the Bosnian wars, including La Jolie's (apparently rubbish) little effort. I'm not sure what sort of attention you'd expect to see in the English language media, 20 years after the events in question? I remember the wars quite well, and there was certainly a huge amount of media coverage at the time.
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  8. #88
    IvoShandor IvoShandor is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by parentheses View Post
    Not defending any atrocities that the Serbs committed but there was arguably an overhang of animosity from WW II.

    The Croats had committed gruesome atrocities against the Serbs at that time. I read of an Italian journalist who interviwed the Croat leader Ante Pavelic. He saw a plate of what he thought were oysters in Pavelic's house. But to his horror he found they were not oysters but the eyes of Serbs.

    Also of course the Germans formed SS divisions from among the Bosnian muslims and among the Albanians. In 1999 German peacekeepers in Kosovo were embarassed when old Albanian men told them how they had served in the SS during the war.
    True enough. But one problem is that although the Serbs committed some frightful acts of barbarity against the Croats, these were dwarfed in scale by the atrocities commited against the Bosnian Muslims. Let us not forget also (although obviously Serb extremists took pains to do so,so as not to dilute their narrative of Serb victimhood) that there were-even excluding Mihailovic-pro German Fascist collaborators on the Serb side during the last war. In fact Milosevic and Tudjman were talking with a view to co-operating against the Bosnian Muslims at one point...which was odd,considering the Serb rhetoric against the "Ustase" Croats.
    Last edited by IvoShandor; 25th April 2012 at 07:30 PM.
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  9. #89
    Lonewolfe Lonewolfe is offline

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    [QUOTE=Interista;5236026]
    Quote Originally Posted by Lonewolfe View Post

    But surely if he was in the thick of things - and he was - he must have witnessed atrocities committed by Croats and/or Bosnians too?
    Well it appears that he didn't witness any. Why do you conclude that he's covering something up?
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  10. #90
    Interista Interista is offline
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    [QUOTE=Lonewolfe;5236048][QUOTE=Interista;5236026]

    Well it appears that he didn't witness any
    Rather astonishing, when you think about it.

    Why do you conclude that he's covering something up?
    He's not necessarily consciously covering up anything, just suffering from selective vision. I find it very difficult to imagine how one could be based in the midst of a brutal civil war and see lots of atrocities from one side, but not a single one from the other.

    Don't you?
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