Since FF first took power in 1932, it has lost power following an election, on only 5 occasions. And never two elections in a row. It has been in power for 20 of the last 22 years. In fairness an awful lot has been achieved in that time and even when the (self-made) current economic woes have passed, the State will be a far healthier position than it was in 1987 (for starters the economy is about 3 times the size). But is recognised by 72% of the electorate and large portion of FF members, that the Party needs to get out of power. For the good of the country and the Party itself. It goes without saying that those at the top will do all that they can to stay in power (Powers only wears you down when you don't have it (Andreotti)).

So how can FF be forced out of government:
Part1:the Dail.
1) FG and Labour need to win the bye-elections, leaving them on 52 and 21 respectively, with SF, they have 3 seats mre than FF.
2) The Greens hold the balance of power, exclusively.
3) The Green party will continue in governement until such time as it becomes untenable (they believe that they rae doing well in their two ministries) from within, outside due to unpopularity or Mahon.

Part 2: the Greens
4) Either Gormley and Ryan are made an offer they cannot refuse ie they will get their ministries in the next government even if their votes are not required or the Green Party is infilrated by people who will vote the Party out of power. The memebership is quite low and a critical mass could be achieved within the party to have a special conference next year.
5) Pressure. The Greens are reminded of the collective nature of government ie they are made to support every education and health cut, every dodgy appointment and decision and harassed constantly. The pressure becomes massive. Evey speech, press release, media report should highlight the fact that the Greens are the only party keeping FF in power.

Part 3: Within FF.
6) FG and Labour (and even SF) need to target FF backbenchers/former ministers, with a view to them crossing the floor. This is unlikely to be achieved, but it could make a few go independent and that could be enough.

Part 4: The Seanad.
7) The government majority here is very tight, while it cannot vote a government out, a majority here can make governing very difficult.

Part 5: the People
8) A link has to be made in people's minds that voting FF for a 1,2,3 or 4 preference, in the locals, euros and by-election is a vote for Ahern's digouts, banker bailouts, corruption and cronyism, dodgy deals. An ABFF education shoudl be co-ordinated.
9) Being associated with FF needs to be seen as anti-social. Or basically anyone in FF should be treatde in the same way as an Nazi Anglo-Irish boardmember who has just farted. Eventually the media will cop on.

Part 6: offer a credible and coherent alternative.
No elaboration required.

Part 7: the FF state needs to be dismantled.
1. Provide real accountability for spending public monies.
2. Abolishing over 800 quangos.
3. Kicking out the unqualified friends of ff from boards and bodies.
4. Ending dependence on social welfare for 640,000 citizens.
5. Greater regulation of certain aspects of business and community life eg planning and financial services.
6. Abolish a host of tax shelters and 6,000 lawful avoiders.
7.adopting EU regulations on time and then then enforcing them eg pollution, habitats
8. Reform the national broadcaster.
9. Break the power of the press barons.
10. Improving the education system with a view of qualtity and ending inequality.

I accept that I was part of the problem. I was a member of FF for 16 years.

That's a pretty brave statement round these parts, QR24U, given the attack-dog tendencies of some posters. Respect to you.

As someone who has clearly thought all this through in some depth, can you answer me an honest question?

I'm an unaffiliated voter myself, but I'm constantly amazed at some of the longtime FF voters I know - fine, decent people in every way, that I've known since school in some cases - who can look me in the eye and defend some of the most iniquitous, clearly corrupt & socially destructive things that have been done in this country over the past decade and more.

I'd like to think that at some stage they'll use the logical faculties that I know they have, but by this stage I'm starting to think it must be a matter of pathology rather than logic.

In your own experience, was there a straw & camel's back/rose-tinted-glasses-dropping moment, or was your change of view a cumulative thing?

Honest question, really - I'm just completely baffled by some of my acquaintances.

well as part of the celebrations of the end of communism/dictatorships in Europe
BBC last night had a documentary on the Romanian leader Ceauşescu

__________________
"We know what to do, we just dont know how to get elected afterwards" Jean-Claude Juncker on how to fix the European economy

FF needs to be removed from power, and its leaders put on trial for treason.

__________________
I'm on a temporary, heading towards permanent ban for using dozens of sock puppets

They need to be challenged. In a well reasoned way (as I have been done by many here), if it merely bluster then a retreat to "as sure there is no alternative" will be used. I used the analogy with the Catholic Church, they many (such as myself) did not leave FF, because there is somewhere to go. That is not good enough. The pressure needs to be put on FF members, supporters and voters to explain how voting FF in a GENERAL ELECTION can be justified given:
1) Ahern's "evidence" at Mahon.
2) The connection between Ahern and golden circles at banks (Fingleton give an informal loan to Celia Larkin so she can repay her informal loan to Bertie, who repaid her informal loan from FF) and the developers (Dunne et al).
3) Cowen's leadership style ie tribal warware, bullying, failing to inform, lack of communication, not consulting outside of the social partners (ie lobbyists), and the fact that he his institutionalised in civil service/management mentality/talk.
4) The economic strategy 2001 to 2007 - the squeaky wheels gets the oil.
5) Would Bruton be better than Lenihan, Gilmore better than Coughlan, Burton (in Enterprise and Employment) better than Coughlan.
6) On what basis do you justify FF still supporting Harney still being in Government?
7) Are you happy that Ahern, Haughey, Flynn, Burke, Lawlor and others took money which was for Fianna Fail, but used personally by them?



But as for me, I am an anonymous internet poster, so any abuse hardly matters. But I would be interested in substantive responses.

as harney says in the youtube film of brian cowen "Burn them, burn them all"

It's not Fianna Fail per se that were the problem. It is the attitude of those who supported them. Their attitudes are often based on me feinism. So while they no longer vote FF, their reasons for voting FG, Lab, SF or whomever will probably remain the same. Unless you have had some fundmental change of mindset recently, you are still part of the problem, even if you don't vote FF.
If you have a genuine reason for not voting FF and now vote FG, then you are part of the solution.

A good example of challenging mindsets, if a tad partisan. In many ways the ideal result in the next general election would be fg having gained at least 25 seats ie it has a choice of partners. But while i may be outside of the tribe, it is very difficult not to be tribalistic when it comes to fine gael.

However the main concern is getting ff out and soon. Everyone has their part to play in this.

[QUOTE=Question R24U;1528509] it is very difficult not to be tribalistic when it comes to fine gael.
[QUOTE]
This is why it is so hard to remove FF - the Civil War is not completely dead - look at some of the junior posters on this site if you want evidence. There are 2 blocks of about 25% who cannot vote for the other crowd - that leaves 50% to fight for. It is up to FG to convince a majority of that unaffiliated group that they will provide a better govt. than FF. Anything else leaves the door open for FF and as others have said, the problem is less with FF than their hangers on.

Why is a thread about removing Fianna Fail from government in the Fianna Fail forum. Ridiculous!!!