Spiritofireland.org - suggests energy independence in five years and much more

Geckko · #61 (**permalink**) 8th May 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by joel

Of course it will be able to cover peak demand - and more so. These are massive storage resevoirs. Filling them up with water will cost nothing as the electricity will be off-peak windpower.

Which countries in the world come anywhere close to 100% of demand met by hydroelectricty (be careful now not to confuse with % of total generating capacity)?

joel · #62 (**permalink**) 8th May 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geckko

Which countries in the world come anywhere close to 100% of demand met by hydroelectricty (be careful now not to confuse with % of total generating capacity)?

I don't know - but it seems feasible. The guy said Ireland had - potentially - over 8mw of windpower, half as much again as that used - and it could all feed into the resevoirs. So the output of the resevoirs seems to be adequate for 100% coverage.

myksav · #63 (**permalink**) 8th May 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaothfar

I'm very suspicious of this proposal.
There is only one person named on the 'our team' section of the web site the Russian academic whose speciality is in other fields. There is no address, no phone, no office, no organisation. Maybe it is all under construction... maybe.
Also, the idea itself doesn't hold water (s******************************). Sea-water lakes in the mountains would destroy, the water table, and all the land below them down to the sea.
But I hope to be convinced otherwise.

Seawater in the dry fjords won't effect the freshwater. The locations looked at are hard rock areas with minimal leakage. The floor and sides would be sealed, anyway.
As to the land "below" these dry fjords, I've been to a few of these areas and there is very little between the valley and the sea, the land is marginal and little used by humans. The only thing would be the "rare snails" people keep finding. They really help the economy.

I've also heard this idea mentioned before, the difference now is that the mentioners now are people with degrees and major business acumen rather than a local farmer who can think outside the box.

myksav · #64 (**permalink**) 8th May 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dillinger

Hopefully the cronies/gombeens will be gone, and unable to get their claws in, fecking it all up, while trying to flip it for a profit. We live in hope.

From what I heard on the the programme, those "cronies/gombeens" are in favour of the idea. The aim is to have a national cooperative as owners/funders for the scheme.

orbit · #65 (**permalink**) 8th May 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by auser

The Spirit of Ireland team appreciate all comments and feedback.

We encourage you to register your thoughts and interest through the contact page on the website, even indicating if you would like to be involved in this group. There are over 50 professionals, from electrical engineers, energy specialists, consultants, entrepeneurs, academics from various disciplines, architects and enviromentalists in the team and there is an enormous amount of technical detail and support for this proposal, much more than we could post in a launch. We have widespread support from key interest groups already, in fact, we have had no opposition to date. The proposal has been through extensive technical and economic analysis by several large external consultancies and agencies and has huge credibility.

I understand the frustrations about lack of detail, but these are not technical, financial or economic details without the support and endorsement of a great number of well authorised experts in the area. we believe this project is achieveable, within budget, within the timescales and with all the benefits suggested and we are looking for people to help, to question and to support the project.

Kind Regards

Can you publish the studies you have done so far, so that people can make their own mind up?

I share the scepticism of others that you are trying to sell this idea to the general public and to politicians, before engineers and technologists, who are better able to evaluate the likely cost/benefit.

Geckko · #66 (**permalink**) 8th May 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by joel

Irelands onshore windfarms are NOT subsidised.

Unfortunately for us electricty users it is. And it works like this. Under the Alternative Energy Requirements the monopoly network owner and generator in Ireland (the ESB) was required by law to buy wind generated electricity. In an open market, they would buy off someone:

Cheaper and
able to guarrantee delivery

That would be a gas turbine most likely.

The the CER (the people who regulate the electrity monopoly in Ireland) keep the price inflated to allow the ESB and these "prefered alternative suppliers" to turn a profit.

Here is an interesting article in the Indo.

Economy will pay high price as ESB turns to wind power - Irish, Business - Independent.ie

This is a most interesting piece:

Quote:

Alarmingly, the report [from the Energy Regulator] indicates that oil prices would have to hit around $200 a barrel if there are to be significant electricity price savings from the installation of large amounts of wind power on the national grid

Geckko · #67 (**permalink**) 8th May 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by joel

I don't know - but it seems feasible. The guy said Ireland had - potentially - over 8mw of windpower, half as much again as that used - and it could all feed into the resevoirs. So the output of the resevoirs seems to be adequate for 100% coverage.

It isn't feasible.

The number of these things you would have to build would be ridiculous.

You would have to build a large excess of them to guarrantee that they had water in them when the power was needed (remember, relying so much on wind means you can't guarrantee that you will have had the excess power to fill them).

And then add up the cost. You are effectively building two generating systems. One hydro and one wind and both of them with a large amount of excess capacity over peak demand to counter for the uncertainty factor (othwerwise put up with regular blackouts)

Those countries that use hydro a lot (Norway, Brazil Canada mostly at more than 50%) have their hydro power replenished by rain/snow melt etc. and need to have considerable back up to boot.

myksav · #68 (**permalink**) 8th May 2009

Sweet demons, yer man, either Ivan or the other guy, speaking afterwards, got it right, 'For every solution, there's someone who will make a problem'. Paraphrasing.

I get the impression that in Ireland, we shouldn't come up with any ideas. And what makes this worse in this case is that there is no prototypes to be developed and tested, as for wave power, it's actually old technology composed of 'off-the-shelf' components.

cactusflower · #69 (**permalink**) 8th May 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geckko

It isn't feasible.

The number of these things you would have to build would be ridiculous.

You would have to build a large excess of them to guarrantee that they had water in them when the power was needed (remember, relying so much on wind means you can't guarrantee that you will have had the excess power to fill them).

And then add up the cost. You are effectively building two generating systems. One hydro and one wind and both of them with a large amount of excess capacity over peak demand to counter for the uncertainty factor (othwerwise put up with regular blackouts)

Those countries that use hydro a lot (Norway, Brazil Canada mostly at more than 50%) have their hydro power replenished by rain/snow melt etc.

This is tested technology and there's no reason in principle why it wouldn't function. Water would only be released when wind speeds dropped. There could be other windfarms supplying in the windy periods.

Denmark is using electric cars to mop up excess from windfarms - they're installing 50,000 charging points.

There are all kinds of problems with the proposal and I think the time scale and claims for filling 80% of need are crazy. The biggest problem at the moment is the inadequacy of the grid.

Geckko · #70 (**permalink**) 8th May 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by cactusflower

This is tested technology and there's no reason in principle why it wouldn't function. Water would only be released when wind speeds dropped. There could be other windfarms supplying in the windy periods.

Denmark is using electric cars to mop up excess from windfarms - they're installing 50,000 charging points.

There are all kinds of problems with the proposal and I think the time scale and claims for filling 80% of need are crazy. The biggest problem at the moment is the inadequacy of the grid.

It isn't whether they will function, but whether there is enough water when needed. The water only gets where it is needed from an excess of electricity produced by the proposed wind farms. The windfarms only produce the excess electricity when the wind is blowing at the right speed across enough of the country at the same time as demand isn't too high.

Goes to show how crazy and wasteful Denmark's policy is. The best analogy I can think of is cooking too much food for your family each day and proposing that the most cost efficient solution to the problem is buying a few dogs to eat the remains.

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