Before we get into that, are you still saying that resources should be withdrawn from special needs pupils and spent on the 'brightest' and that that would be a good policy or more beneficial to the community? The segragation by test is not designed to boost the 'brightest' but rather is desgined to assist those that are not so good, for whatever reason, at uptake of data, this BTW has nothig whatever to do with IQ.

Very simple reason why we have had a significantly improved special needs education system over the past decade or so.

As provision for the educational needs of children with special needs is now enshrined in law (and rightly so) - any suggestion that supports for these children be diverted away and handed to children already achieving is ridiculous.

Toughbutfair - I must confess to being intrigued by your posts re: education. Are you a troll because if you are - you're a particularly good one!

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Realistically speaking, if the majority of humanity remain non-believers, it doesn't matter. No problem! The problem is that the majority of humanity have lost or ignore the deeper human values - compassion, a sense of responsibility. That is our big concern.
Dalai Lama (1997)

There was plenty of anger (and blind panic in the cases of many parents) Hammer. But I'm afraid special needs children don't sell papers or make good TV viewing. Instead our esteemed "independant" media towed the party line and concentrated their efforts on berating the Public Service, my own colleagues as one of their favourite topics. End result: good sales and a contented administration. Win win all round - except for the child with a special educational need.... Never mind - they won't be of a voting age for years to come yet.......

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Realistically speaking, if the majority of humanity remain non-believers, it doesn't matter. No problem! The problem is that the majority of humanity have lost or ignore the deeper human values - compassion, a sense of responsibility. That is our big concern.
Dalai Lama (1997)

To be fair to TOUGHBUTFAIR, he is trying to ask a question here, and the fact that he knows nothing about education, and is a Thatcherite type a little to the right of Genghis Khan, should not deprive him of his legitimate expectation of some class of answer addressing the isues raised in his question

Mixed ability teaching (everyone together, no streaming or fast-tracking of "bright" kids in separate classes) is a political hot potato ,and has been since I was a young radical teacher fired up on "De-Schooling Society" and "The Pedagogy of the Oppressed" and other ground breaking books which took society to task for institutionalizing inequality and conformity through traditional education

To say that you believe(d) in streaming or fast-tracking, was, and is, to admit to treason in some educational circles.

All studies show that, on balance, the greatest good for the greatest number is best served by mixed ability teaching. Exceptional kids seem to do well anyway and the less able benefit enormously from not being ghettoised in "bad" or "weak" classes

Education departments the world over were quick to seize on this data as a way of saving money. Shove everyone in together, no streaming. Saves a packet. If you cannot teach that way, or find your academically able kids are bored, or your weaker kids still find the pace too fast, hey, that's because you are a bad teacher, because as all studies show etc. etc. ...You should be "differentiating", that means making out separate homework and classwork for the different ability groups in your class. That might be Ok at Primary level with thirty kids, but at Secondary, with tough competitive examinations, massive amount of correcting, and a few hundred kids, not so easy.....

The difference between Primary and Senior Secondary on this issue is huge. As the curriculum becomes more complex, conceptual, scholarly and is tested by a rigorous formal exam system, mixed ability teaching becomes very difficult, as studies show that the gap widens between the less and more academically able at senior level.. That is not to say it should not be persisted with. Highly gifted teachers seem to be able to make it work

The way the best schools at Second level deal with the issue is to value and affirm all achievement in their school, having awards evenings which include awards for Good Citizenship etc, where children who do not shine academically are given a platform for their own individual gift and are praised and applauded for it.

I have to be honest however and say that after a lifetime teaching at second level with children drawn mainly from a disadvantaged background, I have found that at Leaving Cert level academically able children are challenged by their peers, and do better in the Leaving Cert if taught in smaller groups of similar ability. Getting these children to University is the big challenge facing society. You can bet that their middle-class peers are getting every chance---individual grinds etc.---to get to college. I want the same for the kids I teach

I'll refrain from making insensitive comments on your own needs in the area of written expression, but I will point out that “coherent” was the word you needed.

I would add that your faith in the high wattage of our third-level graduates is utterly unfounded. I am one such, and have had the dubious pleasure of teaching others at third level. It really shouldn't need stating, but here goes: the ability to get to third level and hold down a college place in the Irish system is not a reliable indicator of “brightness.” Furthermore, “brightness” is no indicator of any graduate's propensity to create companies, jobs, or anything of any measurable worth whatsoever - and I use “measurable worth” here in its broadest, all-encompassing sense. If you want to place all your bets on the stellar futures of our graduates then by all means do so, but please use your own money. I, for my part, would rather see some serious reappraisal of the primary and secondary cycles - maybe that way we would see a lot more original thinkers and enquiring minds coming through to third level.

I agree - too much of school is learning/remembering and thinking isn't really there. Even puzzles and things like that would be good, While I don't like poetry, I think it would be better that people had to write a poem in an exam rather than learn off poems and points the teachers taught.

And you gave a very intelligent well thought out reply.