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Paul Kienitz nails the Libertarian scam

This is a discussion on Paul Kienitz nails the Libertarian scam within the Economy forums, part of the Topical Discussion category on Politics.ie. Originally Posted by Akrasia yes I know, voluntarily blah blah... You voluntarily gave up your freedom to your employer, it ...

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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 14th August 2009
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Originally Posted by Akrasia View Post
yes I know, voluntarily blah blah...

You voluntarily gave up your freedom to your employer, it still remains, that you are not free and you must obey your employers orders...
Contrast Employment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia with Indentured servant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 14th August 2009
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Originally Posted by Akrasia View Post
yes I know, voluntarily blah blah...
"and Akrasia has just found the winning argument for every debate in the history of the world. We might as well shut down P.ie now, there's nothing more to talk about"

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Originally Posted by Akrasia View Post
You voluntarily gave up your freedom to your employer, it still remains, that you are not free and you must obey your employers orders.
I didn't give up my freedom. If by entering into a voluntary contract I gave up freedom then it would be very easy for me to get it back again...

A voluntary exchange between two people benefits both parties, otherwise the exchange would never take place. If I agree to do something in exchange for money, it's because I value the money higher than what I give up in return.

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In my job I have a load of managers and bosses ... when they say 'do this', imposed with out any consultation ... I have to do it and I have absolutely no leg to stand on if I refuse.
Yes and that is what you agreed to when you "signed up".

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Originally Posted by Akrasia View Post
You may say "well, you have the right to quit"
Yes. If you know more than the bosses I'm sure you can look for an interview with a competitor.

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Originally Posted by Akrasia View Post
Great, I can quit, and live in poverty with little hope of getting a new job
So you are making a choice that you value the job and the wages (despite the management situation) higher than that alternative... sounds like a good decision to me.

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Originally Posted by Akrasia View Post
(the kinds of good little employees that facilitated the bubble housing market, the corruption in the banks, the misselling of insurance scandals, Enron etc etc etc etc
That's just waffle.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 14th August 2009
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Here is the definition of freedom from wikipedia. I agree with it, no doubt the libertarians don't

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Freedom is the right to act according to ones will without being held up by the power of others. From a philosophical point of view, it can be defined as the capacity to determine your own choices. It can be defined negatively as an absence of subordination, servitude and constraint. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_(philosophy)
Anarchists are in favour of freedom, libertarians are in favour of subordination.

For an ideology that supposedly desires individual freedom as it's highest goal, Your definition as the 'freedom', to subordinate your choices to a system based entirely on 'property rights' is about the weakest definition of freedom that I can concieve.

When one party to a 'free contract' gets to dictate the terms, and the other is in a position to only accept or reject those terms, then there is clearly a position of subordination there and a severe restriction on the freedom of the weaker party.


This is of course, abundantly clear to everyone except libertarians (and austrian economists as you prefer to be known)
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Last edited by Akrasia; 14th August 2009 at 04:29 PM.
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Here is the definition of freedom from wikipedia.
Is this an admission that you believe there is no freedom under Socialism?
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Is this an admission that you believe there is no freedom under Socialism?
Do you know what socialism is?
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Do you know what socialism is?
Of course. You obviously don't if you have the audacity to state that a worker would have more freedom under Socialism than Capitalism hahaha

You're having a laugh mate
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My consultant's brain.
So your consultant said that if you didn't have insurance and you actually had cancer you would have died within a year?
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Old 14th August 2009
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So your consultant said that if you didn't have insurance and you actually had cancer you would have died within a year?
No. I didn't have insurance. I paid from my own pocket because I was left with no choice.

I went private and was diagnosed within a week. Thankfully it wasn't cancer.

I recieved the appointment to go for public health tests eight months after I first visited A&E complaining of the same symptoms.

If it was cancer and detected when I presented first my chances of survival would be increased at least five times. If it was left for eight months it would more than likely have been untreatable or I'd have to have half my insides removed.

I'm unsure of your reasons for questioning me. I'm not joking here.
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Capitalists don't get sick. They have no souls and don't care about their families or friends so they advocate policies to destroy healthcare in countries for the sole benefits of big faceless corporations and their balance sheets. It's a massive conspiracy. Socialists have a monopoly on compassion.

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Capitalists don't get sick. They have no souls and don't care about their families or friends so they advocate policies to destroy healthcare in countries for the sole benefits of big faceless corporations and their balance sheets. It's a massive conspiracy. Socialists have a monopoly on compassion.

I forgot, my bad. This is what happens when you skip your annual CIA capitalist brainwashing session - you get emotional.
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