Legalize Drugs & Solve the Depression

Almanac · #71 (**permalink**) 1st April 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCSkinner

That doesn't apply to the longitudinal studies you cited.
Wanna try again?

What "longitudinal studies" (the non-longitudinal studies are equally alarming)? In any case such studies can be and are controlled. (Otherwise they would not be scientific.) Studies on other primates have found similar results.

(1) Permanent brain damage- even after just experimental use.
A study headed by Wei Liu MD and published in December 2006 linked Ecstacy use to brain damage- even in those who are first time users. Research from the University of Amsterdam has shown Ecstacy can affect blood flow in the brain and alter the memories of short-term users. Researchers recruited 188 participants that were thinking of trying Ecstacy but who had not yet tried it. All subjects underwent brain scans and memory testing. After an 18-month period, 59 subjects decided to try Ecstacy. The same tests were repeated in these subjects, as well as 59 controls. On average, those who tried Ecstacy used only 6 pills. The results showed that those who tried Ecstacy had a lowering in blood flow in specific parts of the brain. In addition, those who tried the drug had subtle changes in their memories. (see below)

(2) Long-term irreversible memory damage.
Another recent Dutch study headed by Liesbeth Reneman, MD investigated whether the long-term effects of MDMA use on cortical 5-HT neurons in humans and memory function. To quote the study's conclusion: "The present study suggests that, while the neurotoxic effects of MDMA on 5-HT neurons in the human cortex may be reversible, the effects of MDMA on memory function may be long-lasting."

The full study available free in the peer-reviewed Archives of General Psychiatry.

(3) A damaged immune system.
At the British Association Festival of Science in Dublin in September 2005, Dr. Thomas Connor of Trinity College Dublin said Ecstasy damages the nerve cells in the brain that produce serotonin, an effect that can last for years and can lead to anxiety and depression. Additionally, he said the drug has important immuno-suppressive properties that can dampen down the normal functioning of the immune system which has the potential to increase an individual's susceptibility to disease.

(4) A risk of lifetime depression.
Lynn Taurah and Chris Chandler studied 519 subjects including current and past Ecstasy users, people who used other drugs such as cocaine and amphetamines but not Ecstasy, and people who did not use illicit drugs. The researchers asked participants to fill out a questionnaire measuring depressive symptoms, with a score of 25 or more indicating clinical depression. Subjects were divided into three categories: frequent Ecstasy users (more than 20 times), infrequent users (one to 19 times), and nonusers. The researchers found that people who did not use Ecstasy, including subjects who took other drugs, had average depression scores of about four points. In contrast, Ecstasy users—including those who had used the drug only one or two times—had scores as high as 16 or 17, and chronic users had scores as high as 28. Taurah says, "People often think taking Ecstasy just once or twice won't matter, but what we're seeing is evidence that if you take Ecstasy a couple of times you do damage to your brain that later in life will make you more vulnerable." She adds, "[W]e've got a group taking every other kind of drug, including amphetamines, ketamine and cocaine, and they haven't got these depression scores." This, she says, argues against the idea that the depressive symptoms of Ecstasy users predated drug use.

(5) Increased aggressiveness and suicidal ideation.
The above researchers' findings support those of laboratory scientists who are reporting that Ecstasy damages neurons which produce the neurotransmitter serotonin. Serotonin abnormalities are linked to depression as well as to other psychiatric problems including impulsive aggression and suicide attempts. In addition, the drug appears to damage neurons involved in the production of the neurotransmitter dopamine. Among recent findings:

• Researcher Andy Parrott reports that a review of the literature on Ecstasy shows that "repeated doses of MDMA cause serotonergic neurotoxicity in laboratory animals, and there is extensive evidence for long-term neuropsychopharmacological damage in humans." He notes that even after stopping their use of the drug, regular Ecstasy users "often display reduced levels of 5-HT, 5-HIAA, tryptophan hydroxylase and serotonin transporter density," all evidence of impaired serotonin system function. In addition, he says, studies of Ecstasy users show deficits in learning and memory, higher cognitive processing, sleep, appetite, psychiatric well-being, and sexual desire.
• Using PET scans, R. Buchert and colleagues in Germany found that compared with non-drug users, Ecstasy users showed significant alterations in serotonin transporter distribution in several brain regions.
• Johns Hopkins researchers reported that primates exposed to several doses of Ecstasy "developed severe brain dopaminergic neurotoxicity, in addition to less pronounced serotonergic neurotoxicity." They concluded, "MDMA users may unwittingly be putting themselves at risk, either as young adults or later in life, for developing neuropsychiatric disorders related to brain dopamine and/or serotonin deficiency."
Una McCann and colleagues caution, too, that reports that Ecstasy damage may be at least partially reversible should not lead to a false sense of security. "Axonal regeneration in the adult brain may lead to abnormal, dysfunctional circuitry," they say, adding, "Experimental studies report that MDMA's neurotoxic effects on serotonin neurons in primates are extremely long-lasting and may be permanent." McCann and George Ricaurte cite research showing that in the dorsal neocortex, the density of serotonin axons remains markedly reduced for up to seven years following exposure to Ecstasy.
-----
Research by Lynn Taurah and Chris Chandler reported at the annual conference of the British Psychological Society, March 15, 2003. Quotes appear in "Single Ecstasy tablet could lead to brain damage and depression," L. McDougall, Sunday Herald, March 16, 2003, and "Ecstasy makes users depressed for life," S. Goodchild and K. Johnson, U. K. Independent, March 16, 2003.
-- and --
"Long-term effects of 'Ecstasy' use on serotonin transporters of the brain investigated by PET," Journal of Nuclear Medicine, Vol. 44, No. 3, March 2003, 375-84. Address: R. Buchert, Department of Nuclear Medicine, University Hospital Hamburg-Eppendorf, Hamburg, Germany.
-- and --
"Assessing long-term risks of MDMA (Ecstasy)," George Ricaurte and Una McCann, The Lancet, Vol. 358, No. 9296, December 1, 2001, 1831-2. Address: George Ricaurte, Johns Hopkins School of Medicine, Baltimore, MD 21224.
-- and --
"'Ecstasy' and serotonin neurotoxicity," U. McCann, G. Ricaurte, and M. Molliver, Archives of General Psychiatry, Vol. 58, October 2001, 907-8. Address: Una D. McCann, Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Science, Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, 725 N. Wolfe Street, Baltimore, MD 21205.
-- and --
"Human psychopharmacology of Ecstasy (MDMA): a review of 15 years of empirical research," A. C. Parrott, Human Psychopharmacology, Vol. 16, No. 8, December 2001, 557-77. Address: A. C. Parrott, Department of Psychology, University of East London, Romford Road, London, U.K. E15 4L2.
-- and --
"Severe dopaminergic neurotoxicity in primates after a common recreational dose regimen of MDMA ('Ecstasy')," G. A. Ricaurte, J Yuan, G. Hatzidimitriou, B. J. Cord, and U. D. McCann, Science, Vol. 297, September 2002, 2260-3. Address: George Ricaurte, Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, Baltimore, MD 21224. verage, those who tried Ecstacy used only 6 pills. The results showed that those who tried Ecstacy had a lowering in blood flow in specific parts of the brain. In addition, those who tried the drug had subtle changes in their memories.

JCSkinner · #72 (**permalink**) 1st April 2009

2,3 and 4 are all longitudinal, and hence my previous post applies to them.
1 is frankly nonsense - to diagnose permanent brain damage from altered blood flow is beyond merely bad science. It's preposterous. Care to tell us where that was published?
5 is flawed for the same reasons as 2,3 and 4, but also has the added bonus of coining new gibberish - neuropsychopharmacological, anyone? The sole piece of interest is the axonal research. I'd like to see a compare and contrast between ecstasy use (actual MDMA, that is) and alcohol use in relation to axonal impairment. Wanna guess which would turn out more neurotoxic?

Almanac · #73 (**permalink**) 1st April 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCSkinner

Seriously, the top of the page features you wittering about someone else's family in a highly speculative manner.
Go look.

No I'm demonstrating that an individualist ethics such as that normally proffered by those in favour of the legalisation of proscribed drugs ignores the fact that we all exist in networks of relationships and also ignores the reality that we all have a responsibility towards the common good. The myriad negative health effects, both psychological and physical, involved in the consumption of cannabis by an individual, will have a larger social impact, which is a concern of the state.

JCSkinner · #74 (**permalink**) 1st April 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Almanac

No I'm demonstrating that an individualist ethics such as that normally proffered by those in favour of the legalisation of proscribed drugs ignores the fact that we all exist in networks of relationships and also ignores the reality that we all have a responsibility towards the common good.

You need to demonstrate that sensible adult usage of cannabis in any way impairs the 'common good', then you need to define that common good in a way acceptable to at least a majority of society, and finally you need to indicate in what way cannabis usage impairs this common good in ways that are not already impaired by legal alcohol or tobacco.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Almanac

The myriad negative health effects, both psychological and physical, involved in the consumption of cannabis by an individual, will have a larger social impact, which is a concern of the state.

Well, the state clearly is not particularly concerned with the impact of cheap and freely available alcohol. And it happily provides methadone to a section of the public.
Your position is utterly defunct. There is no argument on behalf of the status quo that is not riven with contradictions, hypocrisy and gaps of logic.

TradCat · #75 (**permalink**) 1st April 2009

Quote:

The myriad negative health effects, both psychological and physical, involved in the consumption of cannabis by an individual, will have a larger social impact, which is a concern of the state.

Hence the war on drugs. But I could walk out my front door now and buy cannabis more quickly and easily than I could buy a pint of milk. It is a failed policy.

JCSkinner · #76 (**permalink**) 1st April 2009

Oh, and in relation to your first cited study, Almanac, I hope you don't mean it was conducted by an acupuncturist and Chinese herbalist? Her only actual medical specialty is nutrition.

Acupuncture in Minnesota (MN) - TCM Health Center Acupuncture Clinic in Twin Cities - Minneapolis and St. Paul

drkpower · #77 (**permalink**) 1st April 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCSkinner

5 is flawed for the same reasons as 2,3 and 4, but also has the added bonus of coining new gibberish - neuropsychopharmacological, anyone?

......eh..... it is a bit of a mouthful but it is a branch (albeit a twig sized branch) of medicine. Hardly gibberish....?

Neuropsychopharmacology is dedicated to the study of the pathophysiology and treatment of mental pathology with the employment of centrally acting drugs.

mackthenack · #78 (**permalink**) 1st April 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by loophole

Finally some thinking outside the box in the media..I wonder if the same idea could work in this country??

Commentary: War on drugs is insane - CNN.com

NEW YORK (CNN) -- Here's something to think about:

How many police officers and sheriff's deputies are involved in investigating and solving crimes involving illegal drugs? And arresting and transporting and interrogating and jailing the suspects?

How many prosecutors and their staffs spend time prosecuting drug cases? How many defense lawyers spend their time defending drug suspects?

How many hours of courtroom time are devoted to drug trials? How many judges, bailiffs, courtroom security officers, stenographers, etc., spend their time on drug trials?

<Mod> Please do not post copyright-protected material to the site. A link and a short extract is generally sufficient. </Mod>

this is not by any means a new idea. i recall at least 20 years ago a discussion on the late late that raised all these points. gay byrne put it to a studio vote and 40% of the audience favoured decriminalising drugs...

Almanac · #79 (**permalink**) 1st April 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCSkinner

2,3 and 4 are all longitudinal, and hence my previous post applies to them.
1 is frankly nonsense - to diagnose permanent brain damage from altered blood flow is beyond merely bad science. It's preposterous. Care to tell us where that was published?

Don't invite people to identify with you by continually using "we" and "us". You are giving your own opinion, nothing more.

You are correct that the use of the word "permanent" is inaccurate but this is a report on the study; the results of the study are real:

Here's the news release from the Radiological Society of North America

Quote:

Researchers have discovered that even a small amount of MDMA, better known as ecstasy, can be harmful to the brain, according to the first study to look at the neurotoxic effects of low doses of the recreational drug in new ecstasy users. The findings were presented today at the annual meeting of the Radiological Society of North America (RSNA).

“We found a decrease in blood circulation in some areas of the brain in young adults who just started to use ecstasy,” said Maartje de Win, M.D., radiology resident at the Academic Medical Center at the University of Amsterdam in the Netherlands. “In addition, we found a relative decrease in verbal memory performance in ecstasy users compared to non-users.”

JCSkinner · #80 (**permalink**) 1st April 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkpower

......eh..... it is a bit of a mouthful but it is a branch (albeit a twig sized branch) of medicine. Hardly gibberish....?

Neuropsychopharmacology is dedicated to the study of the pathophysiology and treatment of mental pathology with the employment of centrally acting drugs.

And your definition succinctly indicates why 'Researcher' Andy Parrott's misuse of the term is gibberish.

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