Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Con O'Sullivan
What on earth kind of interest are you protecting here?

Schuhart. No you haven't. And that classic Fianna Fail-style political answer has me even more suspicious that you are more than a disinterested observer. Let me ask you a direct question. Do you have any kind of economic interest which would be damaged by my suggestion?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Con O'Sullivan
Why have you ignored my explanation of this and reverted to your obsession with the idea that hotels and schools are based so far apart as to be 'remote'?

The hotels that are failing aren't failing because of location. Answered this twice already. Whats wrong with you? Do you or do you not understand why there is a proliferation of failed and failing hotels across Ireland?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Con O'Sullivan
Anywhere where there is a school struggling with Portakabin classrooms and where there is a hotel which has gone bust or has stopped paying bills.

Whataboutery.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Con O'Sullivan
I did ask you to say whether you think there are none and I notice you haven't responded to that.

Schuhart I suspect you are lying when you claim you have no direct interest in this subject. Prove me wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Con O'Sullivan
Do you actually understand WHY these hotels were popping up all over Ireland?

Becuase every town and city in Ireland has both hotels and schools? Hello? Or am I missing something new in Ireland where there was law keeping them ten miles apart? Why don't you tell the truth about your militant reaction to what is a suggestion on this board? Afraid it might affect your pocket?

Wherever there is a school where kids are stuck in a Portakabin courtesy of the local FF conman and a failed hotel.

I'll let you into a little secret about Ireland that nobody seems to have explained to you, Schuhart. Don't tell anybody because it might start a panic.

It isn't a very big island. The biggest city only has a million people and you can walk across our major city in a few hours. Ireland has 4 million people roughly, one million around Dubin and the rest split across three or four other smaller cities and then townlands. In each of those cities and townlands there are schools.

I won't rehash the bit you seem to be utterly blind to in depth- there are hundreds of failed and failing hotels all around Ireland and they do not exist on a different plane or some unreachable fifth dimension. I don't know where the hell you live but it be some remote forgotten corner where the Celtic Tiger passed you by because you seem to be totally unaware of these white elephant hotels. They are not hidden in crevices. They even have car parks which could be used as school playgrounds. The killer is that you will find these hotels in many parts of Ireland along with run-down schools using temporary accomodation.

Now could you kindly get your thumbs out of your arse on comprehending this please? Because you are wasting time in my life with your bizarre idea that a huge amount of people deliberately set out to build hotels where nobody can find them. Bizarre, to say the least.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Con O'Sullivan
This is interesting. You want me to measure out the possible commute for 10 examples for you? Who are you? The newly crowned Emperor of Ireland?

Schuhart. Better than being somebody who doesn't want to admit a 'Me Fein' element to their objections. I'd swear you have something to lose by the suggestion as outlined in the OP. You've bounced around from implying I'm recommending a mini NAMA, to implying that there are no such hotels anywhere near a struggling school and demanded I prove otherwise. That is a somewhat extreme response to a suggestion. There's a smell of Fianna Fail off your objections.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Con O'Sullivan
Listen, dozy. The reason I stated hotels are built on or near transport hubs is because its generally not a good idea to site them where they can't be reached/ I'm sorry to have to explain that to someone with as keen an intellect as yours but it will actually dawn on you when you take a look around any decent size town or city in Ireland.


Schuhert When I said hotels are near travel points I did not propose flying pupils across the country via an airport- I can't believe you are this dense. Hotels are always placed at accessible points for the love of Geronimo- with the exception of places like the K Club which has the attraction of landscaped surroundings etc and make a specialty of being tucked away. The sort of hotels mushrooming up around Ireland in the last few years are predominatly built where people can reach them and they have what is called a 'catchment area'.

You really do have to be Fianna Fail to be this thick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Con O'Sullivan
Not every household in Ireland has a school next door either. Your point is?

Schuhart Fine- chuck the priests out of their churches then and use them instead. Or are you now going to say that churches are never near schools either?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Con O'Sullivan
Right. My inept and incompetent scheme as opposed to what? Rent more Portakabins indefinitely from Fianna Fail Educational Supplies Ltd (Managing Director Celia Larkin perhaps?)

As opposed to watching newly built buildings going to waste and schools crumble further? Is that your plan? Because that is a hell of a lot more incompetent than my idea, matey.

Ireland is not Australia you daft prat. Take a drive this weekend and open your eyes to what is around you.

Schuhart Already answered.

Excuse me? Where did I suggest that taking over hotels would REPLACE any existing building programme? Point that out please.

I will. When you come clean about the panic my suggestion has caused you. You have some work/monetary involvement with those projects I am almost certain now.

Are you really this bad a reader? Go back and read the thread properly.

Cork City. Around the Douglas area there are at least two hotels with grounds which are now closed and empty. A clue- one of them is very near Ronan O'Gara's house.

You telling me there are no schools around Douglas or the western side of the city with any accomodation problems?

What about the hotel near the airport in Cork? Think it was recently being used to house asylum seekers?


From a recent debate on another forum: 'Excellent report by Colin Gleeson in the ST 26.04.09.

800 Irish Primary schools are teaching pupils in 1,885 prefabs.

Just 5 companies have 40% of the contracts (Roankabin 224 prefabs, Extraspace 166, Maccomm/McEvoy Arben systems 148, Instaspace 138 and Masterkabin 114).

One school in Cork rents 29 prefabs and has paid €3 million in rent over 10 years.

In the article it surprised me that the minister said he has already started a review and is meeting suppliers to negotiate cost reductions.

Wouldn't renegotiating current rents and moving away from prefabs by constructing classrooms be a better solution and one that is both in the children's and the tax payers best interests ? '

Here is the link.

School Prefabs - Askaboutmoney.com

Now do me a favour and go and annoy someone else with your 'vagary'.

Yes. I am at risk of having the money I pay in tax wasted on a daft scheme that wants to accommodate schools in insolvent hotels. Erm, yes they are. The simple fact is that if it was a good location for a hotel, it would not be closing. What you’re missing is the need to state why a location chosen as a (theoretically but not actually) good location for a hotel is automatically a good location for a school.So you envisage schoolchildren walking for a few hours every morning to get to school.

Can I suggest you are passing beyond the bounds of reason.This is Twilight Zone material.What I’ve actually done is pointed out that your suggestion that schools would be able to sell these converted hotels at a profit as you expect that their value will appreciate is exactly the same logic as NAMA.

Separately, and repeatedly, I have asked you to identify precisely where there is a school that can be dropped from the capital programme because of a nearby insolvent hotel. You have dealt with neither of these points.There are churches close to many schools, as typically primary schools in this country have a religious patron. Are you suggesting that many schools also have patrons from the hospitality industry?Oh, for fecks sake, your imbecility knows no bounds. If there is a school with a greater need for accommodation, then why isn’t it in the capital programme in the first place?What I’m waiting for is for you to identify what school in the capital programme can be better accommodated by either of the hotels you refer to.

But you are not answering. Because you are unable to. Because you are full of it.

I’m glad to have explained the correct use of that word to you.

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Schuhart I've already explained to you why these hotels are struggling. They were built as a property investment and tax shelter, not because Ireland desperately needed thousands of new small hotels. Why do you keep studiously ignoring this point?

You seem hell bent on denying that there are any hotels unsuitable for conversion to schools in any town in Ireland. What the f*ck is that all about?

Stuff your NAMA. I've already explained that this would work on 'you can't pay the bills or blew your investment then we'll have the property instead.' I can't make it any clearer for you. The object is not to prop up developers but to take the assets they can't pay for off them and put it to good use. I'm not talking about paying any false valuation for them either. See the difference between what i'm suggesting and NAMA now?

No you didn't. You demanded that I give you one examplle of a situation where my idea would work and I have identified the western side of cork city for a start where there are some fine hotels unused sitting on suburban property. You have now changed your demand to 'a school that can be dropped from the capital programme'.

(1) Who said anything about cancelling the 'capital programme' you seem suspciously devoted to? You are talking about 60 schools. There are hundreds of schools relying on portakabins all over Ireland. If we wait for the 'capital' programme three quarters of Irish schools will be back to hedges by the time that programme is brought up to speed.


Oh right- these'll be the schools that are all clustered together with churches in the middle of the Bog of Allen is it? Or are you now going to claim there are no churches near built up areas either?

How do you think people make the decision to build schools and churches? By keeping them hidden away in rural Ireland? Weird idea of planning you have.

Carry on talking to yourself. What the f*ck you are talking about here I have no idea and neither, I suspect, do you.

Bull. Take a look back at the last email I posted and read the bit about the west side of cork city where there are plenty of struggling hotel developments. You seem devoted to the small, pathetic, sticking plaster 'capital programme'. 60 schools is nothing and again I have to ask why you are so devoted to a programme that will do nothing overall to rebuild Ireland's school stock. Its a flea-bite.

Care to put an explanation for the word 'vagary' up here, or rather what you think it means?

You've bounced around a number of objections to this idea, none of them very convincing and seem utterly devoted to the current 'capital' programme which deals with 60 schools over (how many?) years.

There's a distinct whiff of whataboutery around your objections and I have more than a suspicion you have something to gain by not disturbing the status quo.

Also, only a fool would use a word they don't understand and where the dictionary definition is available and THEN continue to maintain that your definition is right on a public forum.

I think I've caught a rednecker with a school contract in his pocket.

I’m not. I’m asking why you would believe that a hotel built as a tax shelter is likely to be in the ideal location for a school, (and easily convertible for that purpose, apparently solely on the grounds that any building with a roof on it can be so converted.) I think its called “applying reason to the discussion”. Not really. Both ideas effectively trade on the notion of there being something called ‘long term economic value’. Your implicit assumption is that an insolvent hotel is, for some reason, magically worth more if we make it a school than if we just sold it to a farmer as a place to store winter feed (or whatever the market decided was its best use). I’ve changed nothing. I introduce the actual capital programme with these wordsI follow this up in this post when I sayandSo I haven’t changed. What also hasn’t changed is your lack of an example. A vague reference to ‘oh, somewhere on the Western side of Cork there must be a school that is in such bad accommodation that any old insolvent hotel would be better’ doesn’t cut it. Which of the Cork schools identified in the capital programme could you so accommodate? I think its safe to assume that the Department of Education would feel its capital programme is dealing with the worst cases first. Your daft scheme involves expenditure; even you seem to acknowledge that some amount of money would be needed to convert hotels. As there is only a fixed amount of money, you would have to deprive a school in greater need to do that conversion.

I doubt that you can understand what I’m talking about. But I’m confident others reading the thread can already anticipate the glaring point I’m about to make. Your daft scheme would involve the Department giving its scarce resources to convert any hotel that might be pushed into service as a school, regardless of whether it was actually a school with an especially big accommodation problem. And that’s just screwy. Erm, you’re just incoherent here. All I was (very clearly) saying was that its not unusual in Ireland (and this goes for urban and rural settings) for a church to be close to a school. That’s because (as we know) most primary schools are religiously run – so they may even be beside each other on the same site. But hotels, heretofore, have not usually established schools. So, by and large, you don’t find schools located right beside hotels. Its ok, others got the point. I doubt you ever will.I’m confident all reasonable people can see the relevance of the actual capital programme. I’m also confident others can see a vague reference to two insolvent hotels in Cork does not amount to a demonstration of what precise schools would benefit from being relocated to those sites.Already doneYou’re too hard on yourself. I’m sure you found it hard to concentrate in school. Those prefabs can be so noisy.I think I’ve caught a deeply insecure Cork person who doesn’t know how to gracefully admit defeat in an argument.

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Schuhart Actually lets go with your theory for a moment which might help to point out the absurdity of your point. 'There are no strugging or bankrupt hotels anywhere near a population area in Ireland currently using Portakabin or temporary rented schoolrooms'.

How does that sound? Think about it.

I couldn't care less if a developer lost money on a hokey property development. I couldn't care less if they get short, medium or long term economic value out of it. Thats not my concern and in a free market that's their concern, not mine.

To make it very simple for you- why should buildings with assembly areas and easily comvertible rooms stand empty for moths and perhaps years while schools crumble. Oh- beg pardon, I forgot your weird theory that there are no such developments anywhere in Ireland with a catchment area which includes rund-down schools. They are all stacked one on top of the other in the Bog of Allen and therefore totally unusable. Execpt by farmers for winter feed storage.


You introduced the 'capital programme' and pointed out there are 60 schools named on it. How many schools are there in Ireland? Are all the parents who complain that the schools in their area are run-down and spending budgets on renting prefabs total liars?

Are you aware that there is even an issue here?

You are quite right. There are no schools using rented prefabs anywhere in a population centre in Ireland where there are empty hoetl developments nearby. Bertie Aherne is also as honest as the day is long and the streets are paved with gold in London.

We don't have to. You've solved the problem by denying that there is a problem, the Depty of Education are on to it and there's loads of money for the capital programme you mention. All is well. Next year the wheat harvest will break all records.

And the DoE scheme doesn't involve any tax expenditure at all, does it? Remember I'm talking about taking properties already built and on land already purchased. Try telling me that that Irish Government's capital programme for schools is going to be cheaper - they only have 60 schools in the country on that programme.

When do you envisage an end to the capital programme, and why are you assuming there will be money available for it post the next budget?

This should be good.

Well you just made that up.

What have churches got to do with anything? Except this rather undercuts your theory that many schools are free-standing and way out in the country where there are no hotels. Churches and schools tend to pop up where there are people. Similarly, hotels have popped up on many main routes in and out of Irish towns.

Ireland is not Texas. Its five times smaller than Texas, in fact. Your objection now seems to be based on how far the little darlings would have to walk. Have you ever heard of school buses? Or are we at such a stage now that kids will refuse to go to a school that isn't in their street. I'm just asking like as I'm aware that the school run seems in many cases these days to be a car-festival. Don't know if you've noticed?

Oh its reasonable alright if you are a Fianna Failer. Like a lot of things in Ireland it isn't reasonable anywhere else. You seem quite content that there is a capital programme for a mere 60 schools, by the time they've been upgraded there'll be another 60-100 awaiting serious upgrade. I suppose it serves to give work to pals of pals of those in charge of the 'capital' programme- do you mind if I ask at this point what you do for a living.

I’m also confident others can see a vague reference to two insolvent hotels in Cork does not amount to a demonstration of what precise schools would benefit from being relocated to those sites.Already done

You are absolutely right. It woudl obviously be more cost effective to rebuild schools or build new schools on newly purchased land using tax payers money instead of taking failing businesses and using their already built property?

You are neither a quantity surveyor nor an accountant, that much is obvious.

I'm not from Cork, numbnuts. And I think you are a typical little FF me-feiner who has some interest in the capital programme. Good luck with that- hope you make some money.

And by the way, if the wife suggests a weekend anyway tell her 'no, there are no hotels near any population centres in Ireland.'

Good luck to you and in your future career as Minister for Finance.

My theory? You are the one putting forward a contention.Erm, straw man. The simple fact that an insolvent hotel is in the same vague area as a town that happens to have a school isn't enough to make your case. Try this instead

"The fact that a hotel is strugging or bankrupt does not mean that its either easily converted to a school or on a site that would make it a suitable location for a school."

That's about the size of it.Nor do I. I just don't want to see my scarce tax dollars being burned up in an attempt to pretend that hokey property development can serve as a school.Why would you assume that hotels would be easily converted?What just about everyone apart from you will understand, the significance is we can take those 60 schools as probably being the ones which the Department deem to be most in need of attention. So, if you idea had any merit, it shouldn't be at all hard to find a few schools on that list that could be accommodated in an insolvent hotel.

The fact that you cannot point to even one demonstrates conclusively that you are full of it. This is the kind of thick idea that an eejit comes out with on a barstool, but melts when given any serious scrutiny. As has happened in this thread.I expect it costs quite a bit. The point is that at the end of it we actually get a usable school in a location where its needed. Which your daft scheme fails to do.Well, you introduced the topic of churches. If you can't make sense of your own comments, how are we supposed to?Yes, the school transport system costs a bucket. Only a complete knob on a barstool would contend that it made sense to spend squads more on school transport just because someone put a roof on a hotel in a bad location.So you are suggesting that future school development should promote car dependency? Again, only a complete knob on a barstool would spout such obvious nonsense.Yup, that's about the size of it. If, for some reason, someone donated an insolvent hotel to the Minister for Education, his best course of action would be to sell it for whatever he could get for it and use the money for something useful.That's fine, that wasn't the material point. The more crucial observation was the way your low self esteem prevents you from gracefully admitting you are wrong.

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i wonder who in the department of education grew up with the owner of the porta kabin company that supplys these schools? surely we have enough skilled labour from the now dead construction sector. is our government trying to support employment or make the bigest unemployment queue the country has seen? as i read today ireland is goin through a baby boom. why? theres gonna be nothing there for them. not even a proper school

Political Portacabins: Democracy in Action

indeed...

In fairness I'm not wasting any more of my time on someone whose main argument on this thread is predominantly an argument for doing nothing. The situation is fine, the Dept of Education has the whole Portakabin thing under control because it has a capital programme for ding up 60 schools.

That's fine. And any parents out there unhappy with their kid attending a portakabin school should remember that there are no other suitable buildings nearby.

Schuhart- I'd engage with you further but it would be a waste of both my time and yours as I have this inescapable feeling I'm arguing with a vested interest here which you clearly aren't going to own up to.

But I'll leave a space for you to comeup with YOUR plan (why do I get the notion it'll be exactly as FF want it? IE the appearance of something happening and a buddy getting a contract off the back of it?)

Well, an argument for doing nothing is the correct argument if the alternative is doing something daft that makes things worse. Or, at least, that the chances of there being a nearby insolvent hotel that can be easily adapted is close to zero. Certainly, despite repeated requests, this thread has not identified even one suitable match between a school with critical accommodation needs and an insolvent hotel.My inescapable feeling is this is a smokescreen to cover your withdrawal having failed to substantiate your case.Same as for everything else, really. Get our wage costs down. Then everything will be cheaper, plus a lesser proportion of State resources will be taken up with unemployment benefit and the like.

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