The question before the supreme court in 1987 was whether the european club of SEA was substantially different from the european club of TOR. Ray crotty outlined a number of reasons why he thought it was, the court agreed with him on one point. One point is enough.
Even stephen collins admitted TCOFR and the common defence pact were new.
The charter radically changes the EU as for the first time the ECJ will be able to strike down legislation based on conflict with vague "fundamental rights". This gives radical new powers to the ECJ which surely changes the scope of our membership.

Still no-one will address my initial post on this thread. If the czech senate says no and declares the treaty dead do we blow 25 million on a pointless referendum.

If it gave the power to strike down Irish domestic legislation, that might indeed be the case. However, the Charter doesn't.

That may be because nobody here is in a position to make that decision...and perhaps also because, just like us, the Czechs don't have the power to "declare the treaty dead". They have only the same power as us, which is to choose not to ratify on any given occasion. Whether we went ahead with a referendum probably depends on whether they were likely to change their minds.

Again, people seem to miss a point here - the treaty can only be "declared dead" by a consensus of the signatories. It's not up to any one signatory to say "not only will we not ratify it, but any attempt to do so must be abandoned". At most a signatory can say "not only have we not ratified it, but we will never do so, and cannot ever be persuaded to do so" - it's then a question of who said that, and whether everyone else thinks it's true, and how likely the circumstances are to change.

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As most of our domestic legislation is transposing EU directives then most national legislation is subject to the charter. Even taking into account that purely national legislation isnt subject to the charter it is still a big power shift to the ECJ as EU legislation successfully negotiated (depending on your point of view) by irish ministers mandated by the oireachtas can be struck down.

True point about a treaty never being "dead" as it could always return onto the stage 10,20 or more years into the future.

Only if it violates fundamental human rights, which is something you should support if you support the protection of human rights. If you have a problem with striking down legislation passed by the Oireachtas because it violates human rights, presumably you have a problem with our own constitution?

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What was the cost of the Cervical Vaccination Programme which was scrapped due to lack of funds? €10million. Did we not already have a democratic vote on Lisbon? How many do you want at €25million a pop?

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He3 thats actually a very good point. In all referendums i think we are entitled to know what the AG thinks.

Here's a few below, Plus there are no benefits to a no vote, only further damage.

1. Increased access to European Markets - A yes vote on the Lisbon Reform Treaty means that the single market project will be more efficient and Irish business can secure further business opportunitie

2. Ireland will retain a veto in key areas for Irish Business - A yes vote on the Lisbon Reform Treaty means that any member state will have a veto on decisions in relation to Taxation, including Corporation Tax, key areas of Social Policy and Foreign Direct Investment (FDI).

3. Improve our ability to attract foreign direct investment (FDI) - A yes vote on the Lisbon Reform Treaty will enhance Ireland’s reputation as being a good place to do business which is at the Heart of Europe.

4. Increased access to international markets and power to shape the rules of international trade - A yes vote on the Lisbon Treaty improves our chances to secure access to international markets and will increase Ireland's weight in shaping the rules of international trade.

5. New business opportunities for Irish companies - A yes vote on the Lisbon Reform Treaty creates the potential for increased opportunities for Irish business particularly in areas subject to increasing liberalisation such as Transport, Energy and the Environment.

6. Irish business will continue to develop highly skilled jobs - The Lisbon Reform Treaty lays down the objective of full employment and social progress. To this end, the Treaty prescribes that Member States and the European Union shall develop a coordinated strategy for employment. One reason for Ireland’s economic success has been the coordination of employment guidelines at European level and the exchange of best practice among EU Member States. A yes vote on the Lisbon Reform Treaty means Ireland’s employment measures can be further developed and our ability to develop highly skilled jobs will be enhanced.

7. Ireland’s exposure regarding energy security will be reduced. As an island at the periphery of Europe, Ireland is geographically isolated, particularly in terms of energy security. The Lisbon Reform Treaty for the first time includes energy security as a policy of the European Union and refers to a spirit of solidarity between member states' when it comes to difficulties in energy supply. The Lisbon Reform Treaty also promotes the interconnection of energy networks.

Don't you mean, anyone who opposes a democratic referendum being held should be prosecuted for treason ? You do know the defination of treason ?

The last Red C poll showed 70% of people are now in favour of Lisbon, so a clear majority support it and no longer believe the lies of the unelected, unaccountable Libertas and the Shinners.

This reminds me peterv, a couple of weeks back on another thread you kindly offered to find out whether FF was going to take the money on offer to it from the Liberal group to fund its Yes campaign, and if so how much was involved. Any luck?

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