Which "unelected oligarchs"? Name them.

Seeing as you keep banging on about 1800, why don't you explain to us the ACTUAL similarities between the Act of Union and the Lisbon Treaty? Not crude generalisations, but ACTUAL similarities.

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"The elites are mostly wrong" says FutureTaoiseach. But FutureTaoiseach is also mostly wrong. Does that mean the elites are mostly right?

Given that most legal opinion suggests that Lisbon could be ratified via the Oireachtas without being in breach of Bunreacht na hEireann, how can holding a referendum that may well be legally unnecessary constitute "trampling upon democracy"?

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"The elites are mostly wrong" says FutureTaoiseach. But FutureTaoiseach is also mostly wrong. Does that mean the elites are mostly right?

If it could have been , it would have been... No? Opinion is just that.. an opinion,legal or not.

Holding another referendum on the same unchanged treaty is undemocratic, but because your in the yes camp and it suits your current agenda, you ignore the value of a vote at the expense of being able to exercise it in the future.

We've already said no, the peoples will has been ignored by both the EU and the sellouts in Dail Eireann.

please don't retort with the bulls*it legally binding guarantees that don't mean squat.... if they do mean something, please show how they do, thanks.

It's past time we had a constitutional amendment to ensure that substantially identical issues cannot be repeatedly put to referenda.
I propose at least five years, preferably seven to ten, between votes.
Anything else, as we saw with Lisbon and Nice before it, is an overt attempt to circumvent the point of holding referenda, and a denial of actual democracy.

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It's an interesting argument that the proposed legal guarantees don't mean anything, because the form they will take hasn't been decided yet. You should do the Lotto.

If those legal guarantees are something binding, and will in turn be turned into Protocols that amend TEC/TEU, then we'll be voting on a different package of amendments from Lisbon. To date, that seems to be the plan.

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Never let the best be the enemy of the good.

No, it can be slightly more than that. A legal opinion has to have every word backed up by references to the relevant laws - therefore, if the Supreme Court were to rule that the Lisbon Treaty was not in contravention of Bunreacht na hEireann, there would be no legal requirement for the Oireachts to seek a referendum before ratification. That is fact, whether you like it or not.


I'll ask again - how can holding a vote be undemocratic? If the last referendum was democratic, then a similar one will be too.

Wrong. The people voted not to permit amendment of the Constitution to permit the Oireachtas to ratify the Lisbon Treaty. Since then, the Oireachtas has made no attempt to ratify the Lisbon Treaty, and no arm of the EU has said that the Lisbon Treaty will be ratified without Ireland's consent. So you're completely wrong.

I didn't say anything about legally-binding guarantees in the first place.

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"The elites are mostly wrong" says FutureTaoiseach. But FutureTaoiseach is also mostly wrong. Does that mean the elites are mostly right?

Anyone advocating the re-run of the referendum should be prosecuted for treason.

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"I hereby declare that the Continuity Executive and the Continuity Army Council are the lawful Executive and Army Council respectively of the Irish Republican Army, and that the governmental authority, delegated in the Proclamation of 1938, now resides in the Continuity Army Council, and its lawful successors."

Comdt. General Thomas Maguire

Yeah, 'cause you'd be the expert on democracy there, Risteard. When did your Republican Government last seek a mandate to govern from the Irish people?

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"The elites are mostly wrong" says FutureTaoiseach. But FutureTaoiseach is also mostly wrong. Does that mean the elites are mostly right?

*So, it's only the Irish Supreme court holding things up? Whats stopping it then?


*Do you advocate to keep holding referendum until a yes answer results (at EUR50 Mill a pop? )
If we voted yes the last time would do you think we would be asked to vote again this year... just to be sure we were sure about our yes vote?
This is b*llocksology of the highest order and you know it is...


*again as above, Do you advocate to keep holding referendum until a yes answer results (at EUR50 Mill a pop? )

*No you didn't , I asked that if you did please show how they would mean something.

€25m a pop - the headline figure of €50m covers both referendums.

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Never let the best be the enemy of the good.