Campaigning for Irish Diaspora Ancestral Return Rights: Jus Sanguin

[Eldritch]

"I agree with that Idea."

Thanks, I don't think it would be necessary in countries other than American, I haven't come across any negative sentiment towards the Argentine diaspora for example.

"It will show the ignorant selfish gombeen hypocrite mentality, has no place in this country and they are loyal only to themselves and not Ireland. Some of them would have relatives in America but are too ashamed to admit the truth because it hurts their small and empty little ego."

Exactly, although anti-Americanism doesn't seem to be as popular in the free state as it is in Britain.

"I know plenty of people of Predominent Irish Descent whom would benefit this country, some are sadly beyond the generation of eligibility."

Yeah it's absurd, what a nice to honor the spirit of people like the brave men of the Hibernian rifles who helped build this country or modern Irish-Americans who have made contributions (ie Mitchell, Moynihan etc.).

"One reason to support this which isn't on the list of high priorities; is the huge supply of good-looking diaspora women."

And my fellow diasporans certainly wouldn't mind babes like Fiona Glasscot.

[DaBrow]

Originally Posted by Eldritch

"I agree with that Idea."

Thanks, I don't think it would be necessary in countries other than American, I haven't come across any negative sentiment towards the Argentine diaspora for example.

"It will show the ignorant selfish gombeen hypocrite mentality, has no place in this country and they are loyal only to themselves and not Ireland. Some of them would have relatives in America but are too ashamed to admit the truth because it hurts their small and empty little ego."

Exactly, although anti-Americanism doesn't seem to be as popular in the free state as it is in Britain.

"I know plenty of people of Predominent Irish Descent whom would benefit this country, some are sadly beyond the generation of eligibility."

Yeah it's absurd, what a nice to honor the spirit of people like the brave men of the Hibernian rifles who helped build this country or modern Irish-Americans who have made contributions (ie Mitchell, Moynihan etc.).

"One reason to support this which isn't on the list of high priorities; is the huge supply of good-looking diaspora women."

And my fellow diasporans certainly wouldn't mind babes like Fiona Glasscot.

I like where this is going but:

I think we can expand this thread somewhere else, anyone like to add a diaspora babes thread? That'll definitely help this cause some what.

I think for this section we should remain a little more serious, but a little humour helps.

P.S.

Cara Dillon, now that is one girl to behold.......... voice like an angel and face like an oil painting......... if there were more like her around for us men.

[JRMcNelis]

Someone who found one of my posts online (starship site) has created an online forum for this topic.

I am not suggesting this new, and smaller group REPLACE this larger one.
But at least visit it once, as it is dedicated solely to this one issue.

Discussion Forum - Irish Diaspora for Irish Citizenship (New Group)

Irish Descent - The Irish Diaspora (Original Starship site)


Thank you.

[netron]

ever since david mcwilliams proposed this idea i've been fully supportive of it.

makes a heck of a lot of sense - lets face it, how many Irish Americans would LOVE to have dual citizenship (and an Irish passport). The sheer numbers would be a nice revenue earner for starters.


Also, note that the Welsh are also waking up to the idea - as in the recent case of Welsh-Argentines refused entry to the UK


read more here

It might be useful for the campaign to get in touch with the Plaid Cymru folks to swap notes, exchange ideas etc etc..

[L.O. Dublin S.C.]

Originally Posted by DaBrow

Hi, David Mcwilliams as far back as 2 years ago in the Generation Game talked about how as a country we can benefit from an alternative source of population growth than strengthens our national identity, given fears of what Mass-Immigration is doing to the Ireland that we all love and cherish.

If there is any major development on this subject, and it needs to be well planned/foolproof to work how about:

Have strong ancestral ties to the country; Have Predomient Irish Ancestry of (51%+ minimum and nothing lower that counts as only partial descent............... because that will allow the system to be abused.

Have a clean or very minor criminal record of small misdemenours they have since reformed from committing.

Be fluent in English and show the commitment to learn or already hold fluency in Irish............. we want to protect the Irish Language and ensure its growth

Have a good standard of education or have an impressive skillset.................... these will help develop infrastructure and hard/soft-power

Be knowledgeable of Irish History, culture and customs.................... From personal experience, I have met many (Not all for the sake of courtesy) British-Born People of Irish-Descent who have no concept of irish identity at all............ this is one of the most important criterions to meet

These Country's follow more sensible Jus Sanguin Laws than our own stupid one:

Italy

Greece

Japan

Jus sanguinis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I watched this and my opinion is that:

(1) We should allow fluent or near fluent Irish speakers to come here.
(2) To extend the franchise to those with Irish ancestry when we're in good economic times as we will need an extension to our workforce.

I want to point out that this would not be at the expense at any other migration that would happen in the future.

[DaBrow]

Originally Posted by L.O. Dublin S.C.

I watched this and my opinion is that:

(1) We should allow fluent or near fluent Irish speakers to come here.
(2) To extend the franchise to those with Irish ancestry when we're in good economic times as we will need an extension to our workforce.

I want to point out that this would not be at the expense at any other migration that would happen in the future.

Thank you for commenting L.O. Dublin S.C,

I'm not sure what other migration will happen in the future but I think we should as a country be now demanding that we be more selective on whom we allow into this country.

I think in order to protect Ireland: We shouldn't focus purely on it economically, but socially as well.

In under twenty years, we have changed from a monocultural country into a defacto multicultural country without the wishes of the majority of Irish people............

McWilliams has pointed from his Generation Game Episodes that Ireland has experienced the same level of immigration per head that france has experienced in 50 years....... In less than 20 years.

France and everywhere else that allowed masses of people with no attachment to their country, are now suffering what can only be called social apartheid.

I think Ireland should lead the field and encourage all our EU Neighbours to do this aswell: Encourage their Diasporic Descendents whom still hold strong (predominent) cultural and ancestral links to their lands to return home............. Inspire Cultural Revivals and enginuity they have learnt elsewhere which would benefit society and the nation as whole.

I don't mind a small amount of immigration to Ireland from people who have no link here....... but as long as they make up no more than 1% of the country's population, and we have far too many non-nationals here which could lead to problems in the future.

Dick Spring has said this as far back as feb 2007............ on the marian finuncane show, there is a thread stating this.
Dick Spring suggests a halt to Immigration!

Japan and Korea are examples that a country can be prosperous and yet be socially distinct....... Distinctness makes people that much more special.

[L.O. Dublin S.C.]

Originally Posted by DaBrow

Thank you for commenting L.O. Dublin S.C,

I'm not sure what other migration will happen in the future but I think we should as a country be now demanding that we be more selective on whom we allow into this country.

I think in order to protect Ireland: We shouldn't focus purely on it economically, but socially as well.

In under twenty years, we have changed from a monocultural country into a defacto multicultural country without the wishes of the majority of Irish people............

McWilliams has pointed from his Generation Game Episodes that Ireland has experienced the same level of immigration per head that france has experienced in 50 years....... In less than 20 years.

France and everywhere else that allowed masses of people with no attachment to their country, are now suffering what can only be called social apartheid.

I think Ireland should lead the field and encourage all our EU Neighbours to do this aswell: Encourage their Diasporic Descendents whom still hold strong (predominent) cultural and ancestral links to their lands to return home............. Inspire Cultural Revivals and enginuity they have learnt elsewhere which would benefit society and the nation as whole.

I don't mind a small amount of immigration to Ireland from people who have no link here....... but as long as they make up no more than 1% of the country's population, and we have far too many non-nationals here which could lead to problems in the future.

Dick Spring has said this as far back as feb 2007............ on the marian finuncane show, there is a thread stating this.
Dick Spring suggests a halt to Immigration!

Japan and Korea are examples that a country can be prosperous and yet be socially distinct....... Distinctness makes people that much more special.

Thanks for the thank you.

This is one of the reasons that I didn't join the Diaspora forum on this site. The connection between bringing back the Diaspora and the anti-immigration stance. I have no problem with non-nationals coming legally to Ireland or people seeking refuge status here. The issues of stopping immigration and bringing back the Diaspora are separate. Granted there have been problems with immigration on both sides but we've defiantly handled it better then some of our EU neighbours. Also, I'm in favour of bringing back the Diaspora as the Irish language needs a much needed boost and it would be a great way to fill jobs during good economic times.

I also want to raise two more points. Firstly, we've had people from different cultures and races here before. Secondly, you didn't mention any points on why people immigrate, surely if our Government helped the countries of the immigrents birth to help attain a more equal standard of living to ours then immigration, which you see as a problem, wouldn't be as high.

[DaBrow]

Originally Posted by Thranduil

All other things being equal i think it is preferable to have people of Irish bloodlines in Ireland than people with no Irish blood links. People with shared blood ties automatically have a shared history, the history of a people is itself fundamental to the question of what the nation represents, what it's values are and what they should be - the fact that the history is shared increases social cohesion. Artificial states or wildly multicultural nations that try to force many cultures to co-exist rely upon the authoritarianism of the state to keep order and keep the disparate elements in line, cohesion is no longer a given. Generally the less homogenous a nation state is the more it relies on brute force to keep the various parts in line, examples such as China, Iran, Northern Ireland, Los Angeles, Turkey (Secularism v Islamism) show this need for police action to enforce co-existence when cohesion is lost. The alternative to blood-linkage is to have some kind of document (like in France) and say that this is the nation and pledge yourself to this and you are in - in our modern irreverent world such things mean absolutely nothing however. Blood ties are always stronger and are as much biological and evolutionary factors as anything else, they will keep influencing us - tribalism is human, you cannot pretend tribalism does not exist - that it is some kind of 'construct' (which is the fashionable postmodern viewpoint to take), it is real.

Given a choice (all other things being equal) Africans and Asians fleeing third world misery would never want to come to Ireland, cohesion, blood-ties and tribal affiliation affects them just as strongly as it does us - the desperate economic situation (or political oppression) in third world overcomes this affiliation causing them to emigrate here, but given a choice and all things being economically equal they would rather be back home in their own culture (just like the Irish in the 1840's). Now we need to ask what happens when they get here? Well what happens is their tribal, cultural search for cohesion returns, they bond with their co-nationals here and set up little pockets of their own culture here... In other words many of them reject the culture here and seek to recreate their homeland here instead. The recreation of a foreign culture in this one naturally places stresses on the culture already here and inside the nation itself, as eventually the new cultures are going to want laws passed that reflect their beliefs, they will want their types of worship places built and special schools that cater to them, they will not want to see any more protection of the host culture as a special case. Eventually the way the overall nation state (that administers multiple cultures) operates is unsatisfactory for everybody because they cannot please all sides, people feel less affinity with the nation, more marginalised... Cohesion is lost. Even in nations championed by as staunchly 'multicultural' there exists what is known as 'white flight', and there is much hypocrisy in it - it is like a Liberal defending state schools in speeches and then sending their kids to a private school.

So long as someone has a blood tie to Ireland which they are knowledgeable of (or even a strong emotional bonding and loyalty to a sense of Irishness which they share with actual Irish) they will never threaten the culture of Ireland, this is simply self-evident - i like the idea of blood links but as DaBrow states, it is not enough in itself - he mentions Irish descended people in Britain who might even have hostility towards Irishness, clearly a love of Irishness and loyalty towards it is important. Unfortunately while it would be nice to see people coming to Ireland only because they love it and feel Irish, i think economic pressures will remain the main drive for mass movement of people.

Originally Posted by L.O. Dublin S.C.

Thanks for the thank you.

This is one of the reasons that I didn't join the Diaspora forum on this site. The connection between bringing back the Diaspora and the anti-immigration stance. I have no problem with non-nationals coming legally to Ireland or people seeking refuge status here. The issues of stopping immigration and bringing back the Diaspora are separate. Granted there have been problems with immigration on both sides but we've defiantly handled it better then some of our EU neighbours. Also, I'm in favour of bringing back the Diaspora as the Irish language needs a much needed boost and it would be a great way to fill jobs during good economic times.

I also want to raise two more points. Firstly, we've had people from different cultures and races here before. Secondly, you didn't mention any points on why people immigrate, surely if our Government helped the countries of the immigrents birth to help attain a more equal standard of living to ours then immigration, which you see as a problem, wouldn't be as high.

I think Thranduil's reply L.O. Dublin S.C., is most fitting to your question.

We haven't handled immigration very well at all, so far we are just very fortunate that we haven't suffered any major problems yet but that is going to be a dead certainty.

Research has shown that "White Flight" is taking place in Dublin 15, in the north-inner city of Dublin non-nationals outnumber Native Irish Residents and BalBriggan has exploded with migrants over the last few years........ the demographics changing so quickly is frightening.

Professor Franz Von Prodzynski of DCU has claimed that if Immigration to Ireland continued at the rate it has since Maastricht and Nice, we would be a minority in our own country by 2050. If not sooner, by 2025 because we are still allowing people in when our own men and women are losing their jobs/homes..........


Yes people with no link here have arived before and integrated, but what you haven't mentioned is that they were so small in number that their size meant they had to integrate. Even the Ulster Plantations and Strongbow's Arrival were much smaller than the number of people whom have arrived here.

Problem is L.O. Dublin S.C., the vast majority of immigrants here don't want to integrate: they want to preserve their own identity and customs.

Enthusiasm amongst almost all Immigrants towards the Irish Language is non-existant, they will just learn english and nothing else. They also know very little about Irish Culture, history and political system......... I remember one poster saying his latvian neighbour whom had been in Ireland for 3 years thought Ireland was part of the UK.

I even one time looking for the Bank of Ireland in Ranelagh early in the morning, asked a woman on her way to work where it was......... turned out that she was eastern european and didn't speak any english. Yet she was over here working, Irish people aren't even allowed work in Poland without knowledge of the language.

P.S. You have to admit that a former Leader of Labour, demanding a halt to immigration is pretty damning in light of what is facing us?

[JRMcNelis]

May I express in no uncertain terms....

If white flight (white citizens fleeing communities due to an influx of minorities/immigrants) is occurring...

That is very, VERY bad.

Please do a case study or a literature review of ANY American city from 1945 to 1980.

In this short 35 year time span, segregation was ended, which is good.
But due to the manner that policy was enacted, many of the wealthier white citizens fled to suburbs.

This was disastrous.
First it makes the city poorer, with less taxable resources to fund schools.
Second, this aids a self-fulfilling prophecy in that the lower economic opportunities make crime a more viable alternative for minorities, further exacerbating racist prejudices.

but also....it creates urban sprawl.

Ireland is a beautiful, green land. Would you want to lose that heritage and pave over it with an endless sea of mcDonalds and Jiffy Lubes stretching from Dublin to the Cliffs of Mohr?

I didn't think so.

White Flight has to be prevented, but how one does this is difficult at best to figure out.

[Staropramen]

Originally Posted by JRMcNelis

May I express in no uncertain terms....

If white flight (white citizens fleeing communities due to an influx of minorities/immigrants) is occurring...

That is very, VERY bad.

Please do a case study or a literature review of ANY American city from 1945 to 1980.

In this short 35 year time span, segregation was ended, which is good.
But due to the manner that policy was enacted, many of the wealthier white citizens fled to suburbs.

This was disastrous.
First it makes the city poorer, with less taxable resources to fund schools.
Second, this aids a self-fulfilling prophecy in that the lower economic opportunities make crime a more viable alternative for minorities, further exacerbating racist prejudices.

but also....it creates urban sprawl.

Ireland is a beautiful, green land. Would you want to lose that heritage and pave over it with an endless sea of mcDonalds and Jiffy Lubes stretching from Dublin to the Cliffs of Mohr?

I didn't think so.

White Flight has to be prevented, but how one does this is difficult at best to figure out.

It is already happening, JR. This video clip is from two years ago.

YouTube - White Flight in Dublin 15

YouTube - White Flight in Dublin 15

This whole discussion should have taken place ten years ago, we should have given the diaspora the opportunity to come home. Chance wasted.