Shock, Horror - Iona Institute Finds Religious People are "Happier" & "Healthier"

[drkpower]

Originally Posted by stringjack

I don't think this analogy is making the point you want it to make. Insofar as love is defined as a mental state experienced by some person, I have no inclination to deny that it exists. Equally, has anyone denied that faith exists, where faith is taken to be a mental state experienced by some person? Generally, people deny the existence of God, not of faith.

We are talking about faith in God......

Good grief

[stringjack]

Originally Posted by drkpower

We are talking about faith in God......

Good grief

Right. But I don't generally have faith that you love your wife. I have evidence. Equally, I could have evidence of someone's faith in God. But evidence of someone's faith in God is not evidence of God.

[diddleydoo]

Originally Posted by drkpower

You (and tsemesis below) are missing the point.

It may be evidence that I believe I love my wife. But there is no evidence that love exists.

I am equating love to faith. Both are interpretations that different individuals give to what they see and experience in life. But both are mere interpretations. Neither can be shown to exist.

Some of you guys demean those who base their lives around their faith while you base your own lives (rightly) around your love for wife, kids, family, whatever....

If you believe you love someone then I think people are generally in agreement that it means you DO love your wife.

The same way if you believe you have faith in God it generally means you DO have faith in god.

Both cases do not offer any evidence that the object in question (your wife or god) exists. Since faith and love are purely mental states, their presence or absence proves nothing about something which lies beyond the realm of your psyche.

Your wife might be dead, she may never have existed and the same goes for god in whom you have placed your faith.

Shane.

[drkpower]

Originally Posted by diddleydoo

If you believe you love someone then I think people are generally in agreement that it means you DO love your wife.

The same way if you believe you have faith in God it generally means you DO have faith in god.

Both cases do not offer any evidence that the object in question (your wife or god) exists. Since faith and love are purely mental states, their presence or absence proves nothing about something which lies beyond the realm of your psyche.

Your wife might be dead, she may never have existed and the same goes for god in whom you have placed your faith.

Shane.

You miss the entire point. It is not the object that causes people to live their life in a certain way.

I do not live my life in a certain way because my wife and kids exist. It is because of my love for them.

Equally, it is not the mere existence of God that causes people to live their life in a certain way. It is their faith in him.

The issue, therefore, is less the existence of the object, but more the prescence or absence of love/faith. That feeling or emotion is what drives people to do good and bad deeds. And that is why the atheistic position is, at least inconsistent, and probably hypocritical.

[tmesis2008]

Originally Posted by drkpower

The issue, therefore, is less the existence of the object, but more the prescence or absence of love/faith. That feeling or emotion is what drives people to do good and bad deeds. And that is why the atheistic position is, at least inconsistent, and probably hypocritical.

But, my wife exists. Therefore, I live my life as if she does.

I have no good evidence that God exists. Therefore I live my life as if he doesn't.

How does that make me a hypocrite?

[drkpower]

Originally Posted by tmesis2008

But, my wife exists. Therefore, I live my life as if she does.

I have no good evidence that God exists. Therefore I live my life as if he doesn't.

How does that make me a hypocrite?

You cant even follow the point.
It is very clearly expressed.
Have another read and come back to me.

[garlandgreen]

Originally Posted by drkpower

You cant even follow the point.
It is very clearly expressed.
Have another read and come back to me.

I think we may be better able to understand you if you could tell us what you think the "atheistic position" is? It's an opinion on the existence of something? Where does hypocrisy come into it?

[tmesis2008]

Originally Posted by drkpower

You cant even follow the point.
It is very clearly expressed.
Have another read and come back to me.

I do not live my life in a certain way because my wife and kids exist. It is because of my love for them.

Equally, it is not the mere existence of God that causes people to live their life in a certain way. It is their faith in him.

Okay, I'll give it another go. Your argument is that "love for my wife" is tantamount to someone's "love for God".

Now, let's say I said "I love my wife and kids", and you come to my house and find that I live alone, that there is no record of my wife, or of me ever having kids, that no-one has ever seen my wife or my kids, I have no pictures etc. etc.

Surely the existence of my "love", "hate", "jealously", "lust" for these people is utterly beside the point then, because there is an absence of evidence for their existence. You would conclude, rightly, that I am delusional ("Love" at that point, doesn't matter).

This is exactly what it's like for me when I hear people say "I love God". I have no evidence that God exists, so therefore their o"Love", "hate", "devotion" whatever inspired by God is beside the point. I conclude, rightly IMO, that they are delusional.

Now, as my wife and kids do actually exist, and I have evidence to support the fact that they exist, how am I being hypocritical?

[drkpower]

Originally Posted by tmesis2008

Now, as my wife and kids do actually exist, and I have evidence to support the fact that they exist, how am I being hypocritical?

Prove that you love them.

I want independent verifiable scientific evidence please.

And if you cant prove it, how can you explain why you would killl yourself to save your child? It's just not logical, why would you do something like that based on some nebulous idea of "love". You are crazy. This "love" is fairytale guff. What a bunch of loonies making major life decisions on the basis of this......

[tmesis2008]

Originally Posted by drkpower

Prove that you love them.

I want independent verifiable scientific evidence please.

And if you cant prove it, how can you explain why you would killl yourself to save your child? It's just not logical, why would you do something like that based on some nebulous idea of "love". You are crazy. This "love" is fairytale guff. What a bunch of loonies making major life decisions on the basis of this......

I don't think you understand. I accept that people "love" God. I accept that this "love" exists for them. They don't have to prove it to me, because it is utterly beside the point.

There is no evidence for their God. Their "love" might exist, but they are delusional, because their God, IMO, does not.

Now, IMO, my wife does exist. If you want to get into why we feel "love" and why we want to save people who are our kin, well we could get into talking about evolutionary reasons etc. but it would be pointless.

My "love" for my wife would only be as delusional as someone's "love" for God, if I have no evidence that my wife existed. Can you not see that you can substitute "love" for any other word and my argument still stands? Therefore I have to say nothing further about "love", "hate" or the existence of any other emotion. I am not a hypocrite for reasoning concluding that my wife exists, and that God does not.

Your argument only works if I am asking people to Prove that they love God. I am not. I am asking them to prove that God exists.

At this juncture I think I need someone else to gently let you know that you've lost this argument.