Making Ireland British: is the project nearing completion?

[Guinnesslad]

America, Canada, UK, Australia, New Zealand, and Ireland. These are the truly English speaking countries of the world (yes Ireland has Irish, and Canada French but come on).

America, Canada, UK, and Australia are all big enough to have a slew of their own celebrities, television industries, movie industries, etc.
Ireland and New Zealand aren't.
Ireland has done fairly well considering our size, some of the world's biggest celebrities are Irish (U2, Colin Farell, etc). But everyone has to leave eventually because our country doesn't have the same massive amount of opportunities. Naturally we'll be bombarded with foreign shows, movies, and lifestyles - but I don't think we've lost ourselves quite yet.
Our mindset is very different to that of a Brit. We may want the same clothes, house, watch the same shows, but our mindsets remain separate. There is a terrific ease and general 'niceness' about us that isn't commonly seen in the UK.
If and when the North finally enters the Republic, I believe we'll initially become even closer to the UK (to appease the Unionists). However, after time Britain's hold on us will loosen as there will be no need for a common travel area etc. Our size and the North have alot to do with the problem.

[Schuhart]

Originally Posted by Spence

Haven't moved one iota tbh. The minority are suffering from ideological mystification to the extent that they are removed from the reality 'of our society'. They are strikingly stupid (from my perspective I grant) in the same way someone who supports the Ku Klux Klan is completely removed from reality and to most people is stupid.

Well, in fairness, you have moved if you at least recognise a reality of such folk existing.

Originally Posted by Spence

Maybe Irish people don't like centralisation of authority?

But then surely the campaign would be for decentralisation of authority, rather than simply ransacking the capital for jobs.

Originally Posted by Spence

I didn't over react and no I don't agree.

I'll leave that for others to judge as they see fit.

Originally Posted by Spence

One swallow does not a summer make. I would agree that the provincialism of those people would and does pose a problem. But then it doesn't reflect a significant portion of the population.

But I'm not sure that you're digesting the fact that a significant portion of the population seem perfectly happy with the idea of dismantling the national capital.

Originally Posted by Spence

You seem to suggest that Irish people not going to the funeral of a British soldier would constitute a strong national identity (or at least would be a move towards one). I would suggest that going to the funeral and still having a strong national identity is quite possible.

Possible, but in the circumstances it sounds like you're clutching at straws.

I'm confident the realities I'm speaking of are there. The views expressed by the other poster, to my mind, were just attitudes I've come across over the years. In fact, I've come across the same attitude in other discussions on this very site. In a thread here on Western development I got confirmation from another poster that it might as well be London as Dublin, although I never got an answer to my follow-up question if the national idea is gone – if truly there is no distinction between Dublin and London – where is the basis for an allegiance that would cause the East to resource the West without end?.

So, yes, much as you might not want to here it, that national identity is very much in question. What we have is a very strong attachment to county identity, i.e. the local government divisions that the British devised for us. I've seen little concrete evidence of a national identity except, perhaps, in Dublin as the county identity isn't that strong.

[Spence]

Originally Posted by Schuhart

Well, in fairness, you have moved if you at least recognise a reality of such folk existing.

I have always recognized they exist just the KKK.

But then surely the campaign would be for decentralisation of authority, rather than simply ransacking the capital for jobs.

Perhaps.

But I'm not sure that you're digesting the fact that a significant portion of the population seem perfectly happy with the idea of dismantling the national capital.

Do they? But surely it's irrelevant anyway since the original problem was, according to yourself, that Irish people saw London as their capital.

Possible, but in the circumstances it sounds like you're clutching at straws.

This is just meaningless waffle and an attempt to distract.

I'm confident the realities I'm speaking of are there. The views expressed by the other poster, to my mind, were just attitudes I've come across over the years. In fact, I've come across the same attitude in other discussions on this very site. In a thread here on Western development I got confirmation from another poster that it might as well be London as Dublin, although I never got an answer to my follow-up question if the national idea is gone – if truly there is no distinction between Dublin and London – where is the basis for an allegiance that would cause the East to resource the West without end?.

So, yes, much as you might not want to here it, that national identity is very much in question. What we have is a very strong attachment to county identity, i.e. the local government divisions that the British devised for us. I've seen little concrete evidence of a national identity except, perhaps, in Dublin as the county identity isn't that strong.

This is more elision. I thought the problem was that Irish people thought London was their capital? But I can suss from where your going with this that your notion of national identity and my notion of it are two different things. Indeed, I would imagine that your suffering from the ideological mystification that I mentioned earlier.

[Schuhart]

Originally Posted by Spence

Do they? But surely it's irrelevant anyway since the original problem was, according to yourself, that Irish people saw London as their capital.

Well, if you cannot see the link between dismantling the national capital and acceptance of London as the natural centre of gravity, you're not really digesting what's being said.

Originally Posted by Spence

This is just meaningless waffle and an attempt to distract.

Again, I'll leave that to others to judge. I accept that if you simply don't want to accept these realities, you won't. I'm happy that I'm giving you the material you need to think about this stuff if you want to. If you don't want to, nothing I can do.

Originally Posted by Spence

This is more elision. I thought the problem was that Irish people thought London was their capital? But I can suss from where your going with this that your notion of national identity and my notion of it are two different things. Indeed, I would imagine that your suffering from the ideological mystification that I mentioned earlier.

Possibly, because I actually don't understand what point you are making here.

I thought the picture of (to take the poster illustrating a recognisably common attitude) a person happy with the idea that Cork would be a sateillite of London is quite clear, as are its implications. But, as I said, if you simply want to refuse to digest that reality, that's entirely a matter for you.

[Spence]

Originally Posted by Schuhart

Well, if you cannot see the link between dismantling the national capital and acceptance of London as the natural centre of gravity, you're not really digesting what's being said.

But there is no link between the policy of decentralisation and some person from Cork who says London is their centre of gravity.

Again, I'll leave that to others to judge. I accept that if you simply don't want to accept these realities, you won't. I'm happy that I'm giving you the material you need to think about this stuff if you want to. If you don't want to, nothing I can do.

You haven't given me anything I haven't heard before.
You seem under the mistaken impression that what you're saying is somehow new. Do you think that such people who consider London as their centre of gravity are somehow new to Ireland? I think it's this countries misfortune that they are not.

Possibly, because I actually don't understand what point you are making here.

Just because the KKK think black people are inferior doesn't mean they are.

I thought the picture of (to take the poster illustrating a recognisably common attitude) a person happy with the idea that Cork would be a sateillite of London is quite clear, as are its implications. But, as I said, if you simply want to refuse to digest that reality, that's entirely a matter for you.

But it's not a common attitude by any stretch of the imagination.

[Geekzilla]

Originally Posted by 18 Brumaire

Hiberno English, if it exists, is not a language or a dialect. It does not contain the range of registers necessary for a language.

It's not a separate language, but certainly a dialect. (Insert obligatory Max Weinreich quote.)

You cannot write philosophy in Hiberno English.

Explain that remark.

[Schuhart]

Originally Posted by Spence

But there is no link between the policy of decentralisation and some person from Cork who says London is their centre of gravity.

There certainly is, and that link the resentment of Dublin competing as a centre of gravity.

Originally Posted by Spence

You haven't given me anything I haven't heard before.

That's not apparant from your posts.

Originally Posted by Spence

You seem under the mistaken impression that what you're saying is somehow new. Do you think that such people who consider London as their centre of gravity are somehow new to Ireland? I think it's this countries misfortune that they are not.

I feel you haven't made the connections in your mind between the things I'm drawing your attention to now.

Put another way, would an IT professional in Cork be the kind of person you had in mind when you referred to a particular 'milieu'? I get the impression that it isn't.

Originally Posted by Spence

Just because the KKK think black people are inferior doesn't mean they are.

Indeed, but I'm afraid I don't see any connection between that statement and what we are discussing.

Originally Posted by Spence

But it's not a common attitude by any stretch of the imagination.

I really feel we've been living in two different Irelands. These attitudes are very common in regional debate, and there is a dynamic in Irish regional politics very clearly aimed at dismantling the national capital, seen in the very clear example of the decentralisation programme.

This requires no imagination whatsoever.

[Spence]

Originally Posted by Schuhart

There certainly is, and that link the resentment of Dublin competing as a centre of gravity.

So, everyone who supported decentralisation (including Fianna Fáil), did so because they believe London is their natural centre of gravity or capital? That really is some stretch.

That's not apparant from your posts.

Not apparent to you and not apparent at all are two different things.

I feel you haven't made the connections in your mind between the things I'm drawing your attention to now.

I have and pointed this out a couple of posts ago when I said: 'your notion of national identity and my notion of it are not the same'. Of course, I should clarify: I'm not talking about this in terms of symbolism or competing national identities or anything. I'm not insinuating your a unionist or a 'west Brit'.

Put another way, would an IT professional in Cork be the kind of person you had in mind when you referred to a particular 'milieu'? I get the impression that it isn't.

Actually IT professional was someone who I had in mind. Of course, that's not to say all IT professionals would necessarily have the same views as this particular individual as, unlike you, I don't typically go in for vulgar generalisation. By the way, I purposely left milieu vague so as to see what you would think I meant.

Indeed, but I'm afraid I don't see any connection between that statement and what we are discussing.

Well you seem to see what we are discussing as a problem. I'm suggesting it's only problem in the same way the KKK see black people as a problem.

I really feel we've been living in two different Irelands.

No just the one.

These attitudes are very common in regional debate, and there is a dynamic in Irish regional politics very clearly aimed at dismantling the national capital, seen in the very clear example of the decentralisation programme.

Because these people really see their capital as London, right?

[Schuhart]

Originally Posted by Spence

So, everyone who supported decentralisation (including Fianna Fáil), did so because they believe London is their natural centre of gravity or capital? That really is some stretch.

Well, I'm open to an alternative explanation. But, effectively, yes. You might also consider the reaction in Shannon when they found their link to Heathrow was gone. And, no, a link to Charles de Gaulle Airport wasn't the same for them.

This mindset is there. Yes.

Originally Posted by Spence

By the way, I purposely left milieu vague so as to see what you would think I meant.

Grand, but all you're really doing is creating confusion.

Originally Posted by Spence

Well you seem to see what we are discussing as a problem. I'm suggesting it's only problem in the same way the KKK see black people as a problem.

Afraid I still don't get it.

Originally Posted by Spence

Because these people really see their capital as London, right?

Essentially. Certainly, they're most anxious that Dublin would not be any kind of rival to London.

[Spence]

Originally Posted by Schuhart

Grand, but all you're really doing is creating confusion.

Well I'm not trying to enlighten you or anything.

Afraid I still don't get it.

...

With that I'll bow out.