The Tricolor must be affixed to every school

[rant_and_rave]

Originally Posted by White Horse

Two of my great-grandfathers were in WWI trenches in 1916.

The 1916 declaration does not represent me or my family, and I am as Irish as you Catalpa.

That's true White Horse but the Nationalist population overwhelmingly voted for Sinn Fein in the 1918 general election giving retrospective legitimacy to 1916 and the Republican flag.

[Oldira1]

Originally Posted by White Horse

That was the terminology used in the opening post.



It can mention what it likes. The 1916 proclamition has no relevence to me and is representative of a separate political lobby in Ireland.

I respect their opinion and their republican ideals but do not want my children forced to swear allegience to it in school.

Who is talking about 'Swearing Allegiance to the proclamation?

Perhaps you are confusing it with the Oath of Allegiance to the Queen which your grandads probably swore?

Bet you have no problem with that.

[loaf]

I've always found it strange that I should be proud of the country I was born in. It's like saying you should be proud of having brown hair, or proud to be a male.

That's not to say I haven't been effected / influenced by where I happened to be born, but why the pride?

Nationalistic pride (for whatever country) is, imo, an abstract, arbitrary, and ultimately divisive affair. Why should 'togetherness' have to be encouraged by some phoney appeal to a flag? Why should I prioritise my concern for people who were born within the same set of man-made borders as myself?

[White Horse]

Originally Posted by Oldira1

Who is talking about 'Swearing Allegiance to the proclamation?

Perhaps you are confusing it with the Oath of Allegiance to the Queen which your grandads probably swore?


Bet you have no problem with that.

I have no problem with other people swaering allegience to whatever they believe in. Its called freedom.

Do you have a problem with individual freedom?

[Ed Dantes]

Originally Posted by charley

and what ,let it fly there till its faded and torm, unless it is raised in the morning and taken in at night ,properly cared for and respected there is no point flying our flag from schools,

Exactly!

Our local national school flew flags day and night for weeks, and turned them into rags.

[Monday Monday]

Originally Posted by sauntersplash

In your opinion, what are the chief differences between Christian "values" and the "values of good citizenship"?

Knowledge of the institutions of the state, how they operate, and committment to their successful operation.

Don't get me wrong, IMO nationalism is pretty much a religion too. They both promote a contrived set of approved behaviours, backed by a mythology which claims a higher, external, source for the model behaviours than the society which contrived the set in the first place.

It's just my opinion that nationalistic religions are more useful when it comes to the proper function of the state than theistic religions, which direct the allegience of the citizen to outside parties ie the Institutions of the Religion.

[sauntersplash]

Originally Posted by Monday Monday

Knowledge of the institutions of the state, how they operate, and committment to their successful operation.

These are not values. How you define the "succesful operation" of state institutions would define your values. Success in this sense means very different things to different people.

Don't get me wrong, IMO nationalism is pretty much a religion too. They both promote a contrived set of approved behaviours, backed by a mythology which claims a higher, external, source for the model behaviours than the society which contrived the set in the first place.

Elegantly put and indisputable.

It's just my opinion that nationalistic religions are more useful when it comes to the proper function of the state than theistic religions, which direct the allegience of the citizen to outside parties ie the Institutions of the Religion.

The state is a fantasy. It always was, but it is becoming more difficult to ignore this fact than ever before. Our entire survival depends on outside parties - the EU, the UK, the US, the UN, the IMF, the ECB.....

Close to 80% of our laws come from an institution thousands of miles from out national border. Our very conception of wealth consists of convincing other countries to "invest" in us in numerous ways whilst we import lesser human beings from lesser states to make up our labour shortfalls.

I'm sorry but it'll take a lot more than a coloured piece of fabric and some high sounding olde-timey rhetoric which was ignored by the people of Ireland on the steps of the GPO long ago to convince me that this country even exists anymore. There is nothing useful about Nationalism. The "proper functions of the state" translates into the most lucretive activities for the top ten percent of the citizens of the state. The unfortunate thing is, despite our little homespun mythologies, this has always been the case.

I asked you the question above because when you get down to it. The core values of a country like Ireland are essentially inseperable from Christian values. Not so long ago they were the very same thing and needed no seperate definition. Just have a look at the first lines of our Constitution and Proclamation.

[Amach na Casca]

A good idea. If the tricolour is flown outside every school, and every class has a framed copy of the Proclamation of 1916 maybe more will be proud of their country. If people had more pride in their country then Ireland would undoubtedly be a better place. People would more likely stand up against the corruption evident in Dail Eireann, and the slavish pro-brit media that we have here.

A lot of our leaders have disgraced the noble ideals outlined in the Proclamation with personal greed, corruption and cronyism. We need our young to try an emulate Pearse, Connolly and that brave generation instead of having Ahern (God forbid) or some other charlatan as a role model.

[YoungLiberal]

Eugh. Do we really need this nationalistic brainwashing? It's useful rhetoric to get people to accept things that they normally wouldn't, but the more brainwashing you do, the longer it's going to take for people to realise nationalism is a lot of codswallop when they make it to University.

[YoungLiberal]

Originally Posted by Amach na Casca

A good idea. If the tricolour is flown outside every school, and every class has a framed copy of the Proclamation of 1916 maybe more will be proud of their country. If people had more pride in their country then Ireland would undoubtedly be a better place. People would more likely stand up against the corruption evident in Dail Eireann, and the slavish pro-brit media that we have here.

A lot of our leaders have disgraced the noble ideals outlined in the Proclamation with personal greed, corruption and cronyism. We need our young to try an emulate Pearse, Connolly and that brave generation instead of having Ahern (God forbid) or some other charlatan as a role model.

Defo the type of people we want as role models for our kids.