Michael Collins: The film

[ireland2004]

Just starting on Sky Movies Seven here so I've decided to sit down and watch it (as I haven't seen it in a while). What's peoples thoughts on it?

Not even a minute into it and it's claimed Collins was the mastermind behind the IRAs guerilla war... bit of an insult to the many other people who fought against the British in the period.

[badinage]

there's a thread open on this: here.

I'm sure there's a few more from the old days too

[ibis]

Originally Posted by ireland2004

Just starting on Sky Movies Seven here so I've decided to sit down and watch it (as I haven't seen it in a while). What's peoples thoughts on it?

Not even a minute into it and it's claimed Collins was the mastermind behind the IRAs guerilla war... bit of an insult to the many other people who fought against the British in the period.

It is a slanted film, to be sure, but I think the history bears a fair bit of it out. Collins was brutally realistic, organised, and smart. Many of those also fighting may well have been just as smart, and as organised (although an awful lot weren't), but they seem also to have been rather more romantic and rather less ruthless.

Most Irish rebellions failed because they were either riddled with informers, or hopelessly unrealistic, or both. Collins' plans seems to have been realistic, and he certainly concentrated on the spying problem.

To claim him as "mastermind" of the guerilla war is to ignore the difficulties involved in running a guerilla war - local decision-making, sporadic communications, etc. However, I don't think one can deny that he had a huge input to the successful use of flying columns, and the abandonment of the "blood sacrifice" mentality. He also funded much of the effort, through the issuance of the National Loan.

Overall, I think the term is fair, although I would accord de Valera equal status, despite my personal belief that the man was a dangerously stupid romantic.

[FutureTaoiseach]

I don't think it's an exaggeration to call him the mastermind of the War of Independence. He was. Great movie. But flawed in some respects, namely:

A: Doesn't go into enough detail on the 1918 election. An unacquainted viewer might be forgiven for thinking the mandate of that year never happened. It is only alluded to in the election via the Collins speech against a candidate wanting to send us to the Somme.

B: Nothing on the Treaty negotiations themselves. This is the big hole in the movie for me. Wanted to see Lloyd George's treachery over the border laid bare in his reassurances to Collins that the border was temporary while he mailed Craig to say the exact opposite.

C: Historical inaccuracies such as how Harry Boland died. On the De Valera thing I don't accept it necessarily implicates him in Collins' assassination. Dev is shown being asked by Jonathan Rhys Myers for a reply to Collin's request for a meeting and Dev doesn't really give an answer. So this criticism of the movie isn't really fair.

D: Perhaps not enough detail on the civil war outside of Dublin e.g. Ballyseedy, commandeering of the Ivernia and the amphibious landings behind anti-Treaty lines in Munster and the street fighting there.

[badinage]

Originally Posted by FutureTaoiseach

A: Doesn't go into enough detail on the 1918 election. An unacquainted viewer might be forgiven for thinking the mandate of that year never happened.

Do you think a different election result would have changed anything? If Sinn Fein had only gotten 33% of the vote, do you think the IRA wouldn't have launched the Tan War anyway?

Originally Posted by FutureTaoiseach

B: Nothing on the Treaty negotiations themselves. This is the big hole in the movie for me.

Yeah that was a huge lost opportunity too. Even a single 10 second scene, compromising an outside shot of the delegation arriving at 10 Downing Street, and an indoor shot of Collins with Lloyd George and Churchill, with a voiceover, would have been something.

Originally Posted by FutureTaoiseach

[C: Historical inaccuracies such as how Harry Boland died.

Broy's death too. And the car bomb. And the armoured car firing into the crowd from inside Croke Park instead of firing over it from the laneway outside.

Originally Posted by FutureTaoiseach

[D: Perhaps not enough detail on the civil war outside of Dublin e.g. Ballyseedy, commandeering of the Ivernia and the amphibious landings behind anti-Treaty lines in Munster and the street fighting there.

Well it was a biography of Michael Collins' career, not a history of the Tan War and Civil War.

[ireland2004]

I don't think it's an exaggeration to call him the mastermind of the War of Independence. He was.

No, he wasn't. Are you forgetting about figues like Tom Barry?

[ibis]

Originally Posted by ireland2004

No, he wasn't. Are you forgetting about figues like Tom Barry?

Hmm. Locally (or regionally) important, rather than nationally. To call Collins a (or even 'the') mastermind doesn't detract from the accomplishments of others, any more than calling Hitler the mastermind of Germany in WW2 detracts from the accomplishments of Rommel or Guderian (the comparison is not intended to be slighting).

[ireland2004]

I personally suspect the cost of trying to maintain a presence and British "law and order" in places like Cork against the flying columns was the most significant factor in the British coming to a truce. As it happens they totally outclassed the Republican negotiators and were able to threaten a war against the Irish people.

[badinage]

Originally Posted by ireland2004

I personally suspect the cost of trying to maintain a presence and British "law and order" in places like Cork against the flying columns was the most significant factor in the British coming to a truce.

Would you actually call Tom Barry a "mastermind" though? Surely "competent" or even "inspiring" would be more appropriate, rather than mastermind?

Its natural of the media, and popular history, to simplify historical around central figures. The campaign in Cork was less personality-driven than Collins' squad activities, so Barry's importance would be even less in my opinion

[Podolski]

Tom Barry was a very important figure but he didn't arrive on the scene until quite late - the War of Independence was already well underway. Others like Seán O'Hegarty, Dan Breen, Liam Deasy and Seán Moylan are overlooked by history.

The role of South Munster is also understated, both in the film and in real life. The truth is that the cockpit of the War of Independence was the counties of Cork, Tipperary, Kerry, Limerick and Clare.