Quote:
Originally Posted by Halo Walrus.I would say that 25% of the active IRA men left and joined the imperialists in the free state army after the truce. some guns would have went with them. Not all, but we can assume some.
During the joint offensive up north in 1922 the IRA lost more guns than they went in with, even though collins was using some british weapons. a story in itself.
So be clear here. There are two examples of the IRA losing guns after the treaty. I know that joe mac garrity had a batch of guns blocked from coming in at that time also.
So how can you say that the IRA was better equipped in the civil war than the tan. I'll agree there was guns and unlike the staters propaganda there was enough to fight the britis, but how were they better equipped as yous stated.
I want links and quotes to were the IRA obtained these extra guns from the period june 1921 up to the start of the civil war.
id also like to mention that tom barry that around the truce time, stated that the IRA had enough weapons to fight for 5 years. He didnt mention any extra weapons.
Also ernie o malley talks of making mortar bombs and things like that. But where the extras guns
Remember you did quote this
'by civil war, all sides were better equipped.'
edit btw you could well be right on this one, but im interested to know how you come to this conclusion. |
at least you are making an effort to discuss and debate - and thanks. yes "better equiped" in context of anti treaty ira was a very very inappropriate word used by me, - when you even include issues such as experience, whether or not they had locals to rely on, money (funds in america which were raised by anti treaty people were injuncted from coming to ireland)
my reference to better equipped refers to the united ira of the tan war, compared to that of the ira who went to the free state and that of that who went anti treaty, as you say vast majority of ira men, in particular officers went anti treaty. you further rightly note that the free state got alot of their gear from the british. moreover you refered to lost of guns between both sides - this would be quiete clear when both groups occupied, evacuate and re-occupied barracks and garrisions from each other before the four courts. you will recall that on some occassions, free staters for various reasons gave up barracks' to the ira without much trouble and vica versa - i am sure you would agree often guns changed hands on a number of occassions. the anti treaty lads, as you noted had kept most of the guns during the split, and thus were in a better position material wise than the free staters at the start - free staters army had to start from scratch - sure fs uniforms had to be made in britian. (of course, the ant treaty men never really went on a complete rampage, for understandable reasons such as not wanting to kill their fellow country men)
i would recommend, if one has not looked at it already, Michael Hopkinson's book on the civil war "green against green", a concise but very helpful book, and most important as partial as possible (if that is possible) on the events throughout the country during the civil war. i will get abk to you with quotes etc.
in fairness what tom barry said during the truce time is completely different to what tom barry said and believed as far as the end of 1922 alone - never mind what the realities turned out to be as the war progressed , moreover, prior to the start of the civil war, what experience had the great tom barry had outside the munster region and the occassional trip to dublin to make such comments about the state of the rest of the ira nationwide?.GHQ certainly differed in their opinion, then again though, there communications were not too hot nor were they aware of what was going on around the country half the time. it would be very very difficult to doubt the credibility, genuiness and accuracy of tom barry's comments about the amount of guns in his possession at time of truce as the man and his people saw a great deal of action. barry, when criticising other counties noted that they had no excuse for failing to capture arms etc as there were plenty of barracks around to raid (again i am referring to the tan war at this point). problems around the country included lack of leaders of the same calibre as barry, who one must note, (he along with very few men had any military experience) and of course the widespread of arrests of active members. liam lynch, who at the begining tried to keep the ira (pro and anti) untied before and slightly shortly after four courts naturally was very very very reluctant to engage in any hostilities, the war turned up and his attitude hardened for no surrender or compromise. he became out of touch near the end thinking certain places like the west which had earlier being recaptured / control by the free state and most hostilites ceased quiete early, would save the day.